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Hey guys,
It's been suggested multiple times in recent months that healers should receive negative Karma when healing ally players with negative Karma.
I am currently on the fence about this, I can't decide, but I am leaning more towards agreeing that there should be some kind of negative Karma penalty for healers.
First it needs to be decided WHEN negative Karma is applied to healers. Options include:
1. When they heal an Unawful (Orange), Chaotic (Red), or Wanted (Black) player.
2. When they heal a Chaotic (Red) or Wanted (Black) player.
3. When they heal a Wanted (Black) player.
We also need to decide if this includes heals in the form of buffs or just direct heals, because there are many buffs that heal, like Regeneration, and also other classes that have buff heals that can be used on allies. We should also decide if this includes regular buffs, like shields, buffs to stats etc. This would affect all classes, not just healers.
Finally we need to decide how much Karma is deducted or if Karma should be set to a specific amount.
1. Deduct 1 Karma for every heal.
This option would allow the healer to eventually become Wanted and able to be sent to prison.
2. Set the healer to Unlawful -10 Karma IF they are currently Neutral (White) or Lawful (Green).
This option would just set them to Unlawful and enable enemy players to attack them without fear of losing Karma until the healer's -10 Karma is replenished, but the healer would never turn Wanted (Black) so wouldn't have their healing and support restricted out of fear of being sent to prison.
Personally, I feel the way to go would be setting the healer's Karma to -10 (Unlawful) if they directly heal a Chaotic (Red) or Wanted (Black) player. Enemy players would be able to attack the healer without losing Karma for a while but the healer would never turn Wanted (Black) just from healing so they wouldn't need to fear being sent to prison and being unable to support their party/raid.
I don't think buff type heals or actual buffs should be included. If you include buffs where do you draw the line. Should it only be buffs from the healer classes? What about the healer buffs that are included in the first jobs and available to Wiz/Sorc classes? Should totem/circle type buffs and party aura buffs be included? Dispels? It get's too complicated and the more complicated it is the harder it is to implement and the higher chance of bugs and issues.
Please give me some feedback and don't feel restricted by the options/examples I have given above if you have a better idea on how this could work. Just try to keep it as simple as possible.
It's been suggested multiple times in recent months that healers should receive negative Karma when healing ally players with negative Karma.
I am currently on the fence about this, I can't decide, but I am leaning more towards agreeing that there should be some kind of negative Karma penalty for healers.
First it needs to be decided WHEN negative Karma is applied to healers. Options include:
1. When they heal an Unawful (Orange), Chaotic (Red), or Wanted (Black) player.
2. When they heal a Chaotic (Red) or Wanted (Black) player.
3. When they heal a Wanted (Black) player.
We also need to decide if this includes heals in the form of buffs or just direct heals, because there are many buffs that heal, like Regeneration, and also other classes that have buff heals that can be used on allies. We should also decide if this includes regular buffs, like shields, buffs to stats etc. This would affect all classes, not just healers.
Finally we need to decide how much Karma is deducted or if Karma should be set to a specific amount.
1. Deduct 1 Karma for every heal.
This option would allow the healer to eventually become Wanted and able to be sent to prison.
2. Set the healer to Unlawful -10 Karma IF they are currently Neutral (White) or Lawful (Green).
This option would just set them to Unlawful and enable enemy players to attack them without fear of losing Karma until the healer's -10 Karma is replenished, but the healer would never turn Wanted (Black) so wouldn't have their healing and support restricted out of fear of being sent to prison.
Personally, I feel the way to go would be setting the healer's Karma to -10 (Unlawful) if they directly heal a Chaotic (Red) or Wanted (Black) player. Enemy players would be able to attack the healer without losing Karma for a while but the healer would never turn Wanted (Black) just from healing so they wouldn't need to fear being sent to prison and being unable to support their party/raid.
I don't think buff type heals or actual buffs should be included. If you include buffs where do you draw the line. Should it only be buffs from the healer classes? What about the healer buffs that are included in the first jobs and available to Wiz/Sorc classes? Should totem/circle type buffs and party aura buffs be included? Dispels? It get's too complicated and the more complicated it is the harder it is to implement and the higher chance of bugs and issues.
Please give me some feedback and don't feel restricted by the options/examples I have given above if you have a better idea on how this could work. Just try to keep it as simple as possible.
Responses (45)
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Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
And do you think that killing the boss plus doing PK, both are possible to do at the same time
This is impossible if we don’t have many geared people and we are bothered by a sufficient number of people. That’s the point of a raid boss at free pvp map. U can’t kill it easy. It’s why raid bosses have best things and all players want something from this bosses
Imagine both sides having an equal amount of players and all of them are well-geared, they PK for hours and hours, but no raid gets the boss
What is the point of all of this then? -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
And do you think that killing the boss plus doing PK, both are possible to do at the same time
This is impossible if we don’t have many geared people and we are bothered by a sufficient number of people. That’s the point of a raid boss at free pvp map. U can’t kill it easy. It’s why raid bosses have best things and all players want something from this bosses
Ok so you think it's fine to be unable to kill the boss if there's PK interference? What if that PK interference lasts till server reset? You think it's ok for PK to last till server reset everytime the boss spawns and after all these hours nobody gets the gears? Where's the logic in that
You PK to be able to get the boss but no matter what, you end up not getting it, what's the point of PK then? -
Accepted Answer
I agree that it makes sense for healers to be punished, or able to go to jail; however I’m also not sure that -1 karma per heal is the best idea.
Dps right now can at least “manage” their karma by purposefully not hitting white/green targets, which isn’t really much of an option for healers, who should be healing and supporting everyone in their raid.
My issue isn’t healers turning black itself, but rather the rate of which they do. Cause if they turn black too fast, then it’ll just be a race to kill each others’ healers from the start.
I’m fine to give option 1 a go, but I think karma gain shouldn’t come from orange targets, maybe just red or maybe even just black? Not sure on that tbh, but that way, the rate of which healers gain karma would probably be more level with the dps, meaning they shouldn’t have to hold back their support for their raid as well. -
Accepted Answer
Lucifer wrote:
And do you think that killing the boss plus doing PK, both are possible to do at the same time
This is impossible if we don’t have many geared people and we are bothered by a sufficient number of people. That’s the point of a raid boss at free pvp map. U can’t kill it easy. It’s why raid bosses have best things and all players want something from this bosses -
Accepted Answer
L1sto4ek wrote:
when you 2 years in 30-40 people did not let anyone kill the boss. you liked everything. now when you lose in an equal number of people, instead of thinking about what you can do in the game plan to win, you come up with tactics. you go to cry to Sedy so that he makes the conditions that you like. you pathetic guys. Cringe
maybe ask him to give you a gm panel? ) and the red button "kill everyone"
or just ban all Russians, then no one will interfere with you)
Lose yeah bro lose all of ur pt in jail and the rest run and you say we lost xDD -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
We want the fking boss sir.
easy - just fight and take it
Help to ur guildmates to farm equipments and cards, its gonna help u!
And do you think that killing the boss plus doing PK, both are possible to do at the same time?
Ofcourse you'll recklessly answer yes then again I'll ask, why can't your raid kill the boss when we are there? You guys wait for us to log off to be able to kill the boss, no? -
Accepted Answer
when you 2 years in 30-40 people did not let anyone kill the boss. you liked everything. now when you lose in an equal number of people, instead of thinking about what you can do in the game plan to win, you come up with tactics. you go to cry to Sedy so that he makes the conditions that you like. you pathetic guys. Cringe
maybe ask him to give you a gm panel? ) and the red button "kill everyone"
or just ban all Russians, then no one will interfere with you) -
Accepted Answer
Thank you for explaining that in this situation you only think about yourself and do not care about the other players
for a long time your alliance has been farming oceanos without the possibility of getting loot
I think that the introduction of minus karma for healing is not rational, you can use one aoe skill and get a lot of negative karma at once. World Boss spawn in pvp locations so that for an opportunity to take his loot to fight, your ali have always been more than other players, now an equal number and for some reason you lose and look for easy ways, I also have time like the other guys from Thailand, I either join the game or skip -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
when the issue is killing the boss :skull:
BOSSES SPAWN AT FREE PVP MAPS
He said
"want fast fight - bf arena
want pvp up to 1 death? okay - fire pit
do you want long pvp? okay leggo - okeanos\ hedora
want fast pvp in map? - exca"
We want the fking boss sir.
The main idea of our suggestion (aka introducing a new PvP system) is to get the BOSS not cause we want a new type of PvP, feel the stupidity of what he and you said? or not yet? x DDD -
Accepted Answer
Madara wrote:
Dezyce wrote:
4am kill boss, hey that's good for you. But sorry to say not everyone live in the same way as you do, be realistic, we all have life, don't take it personal. I believe the old system are great, but hmmm everything changes as time goes on, and I do believe that a new way of pk would bring freshness to the current players. Anyway, that's up to Sedy what would he decide.
Video here
everyone has a personal life and not everyone has the opportunity to always log on to a pvp , you have to understand this like the rest you just want a new pvp system for your own benefit
but understand, we have been playing this game for a very long time, we all woke up for pvp bosses at any time convenient for us, be it night, morning or day
Many of us have already grown up , but this does not mean that if we have grown up , the game should change for us okay?
there are other players and younger than us who will like to fight for 2 hours or more
so why should Sedy change something for us because we've grown up?
everything you offer is already in the game in one form or another
want fast fight - bf arena
want pvp up to 1 death? okay - fire pit
do you want long pvp? okay leggo - okeanos\ hedora
want fast pvp in map? - exca
I don't see the point of adding some new pvp system
but the changes in karma for the healers must be changed and how it will be, it is up to the Sedy
aw this video those were glorious days
thanks for the nostalgia
dude said really said:
want fast fight - bf arena
want pvp up to 1 death? okay - fire pit
do you want long pvp? okay leggo - okeanos\ hedora
want fast pvp in map? - exca
These ruskies be talking about PvP when the issue is killing the boss :skull: -
Accepted Answer
Please try to stay on topic guys.
This suggestion is specifically about if healers should receive negative Karma from healing or not, and if so, how it should be implemented into the existing Karma system. If you want to make a suggestion about changing or removing the Karma system as a whole make a new post here in the suggestions forum.
I'm trying to involve players in the decision making when things are suggested again instead of just deciding myself but this is the main reason I stopped doing it way back when - because it usually resulted in a whole bunch of off-topic replies and arguing. -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
Y'all weren't able to kill it till the server had to reset, how does that work out for you? 3 People being able to prevent 12 people from killing a boss just cause you can't get rid of these 3 players for a long period of time to allow you to kill the boss without players interfering.
I talk about Henry. Raid boss for raid - 18 ppl. We can try to make full raid of wellgeared people and I’m sure that 3 ppl wont be a problem. As I said - no people and time means no loot. And Sedy made the Karma system, it fix that pvp till the end of the day.
Karma system doesn't fix anything, it doesn't prevent PK from lasting for hours, PK would last till server reset if both sides are willing to keep it up, and boss wouldn't die still
Now tell me ms. steven hawkins how the fuck can that be allowed in any game, hours of PvP for the sake of the BOSS and you still don't kill the BOSS -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
Y'all weren't able to kill it till the server had to reset, how does that work out for you? 3 People being able to prevent 12 people from killing a boss just cause you can't get rid of these 3 players for a long period of time to allow you to kill the boss without players interfering.
I talk about Henry. Raid boss for raid - 18 ppl. We can try to make full raid of wellgeared people and I’m sure that 3 ppl wont be a problem. As I said - no people and time means no loot. And Sedy made the Karma system, it fix that pvp till the end of the day.
Did this ruskie just ignore my whole message and completely miss out the point, again? x DDDDDDD -
Accepted Answer
Lucifer wrote:
Y'all weren't able to kill it till the server had to reset, how does that work out for you? 3 People being able to prevent 12 people from killing a boss just cause you can't get rid of these 3 players for a long period of time to allow you to kill the boss without players interfering.
I talk about Henry. Raid boss for raid - 18 ppl. We can try to make full raid of wellgeared people and I’m sure that 3 ppl wont be a problem. As I said - no people and time means no loot. And Sedy made the Karma system, it fix that pvp till the end of the day. -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Im not defending my advantage. I'm defending the old game system. When you farmed bosses without any interference - no one thought about new ways to kill the boss. Until this day, these bosses have always been taken by those who are stronger at all (have ppl have time too). When Tundro was the tastiest boss on the official server, my guild would set alarms for 4am to come in and pick it up. We fought for 5 hours sometimes, no one cried. if you want loot - go play, help ur newbies to lvl up, farm lq - that gives more strong ppl for fighting. Don’t wanna help anyone - make second character and farm for yourself.
U wanna log in for 2 hours and take raid boss after mini pvp. But this content sounds like battlefield really.
It wouldn't be 2 hours if my opponent is decent and survives for longer, yeah?
Plus it does seem like you are defending what's at your advantage and you don't even seem to realize what the real issue is
The real issue is, considering both raids have an endless amount of time and an equal amount of players, the boss is literally fucking unkillable which shouldn't be allowed in any game ever.
I just think it's pathetic, the strategy for PK should never be "we will keep it up for as long as we can till they have to go" or "we will keep it up for as long as we can till they give up", it should be "we will do our best to prevent them from taking the boss and taking it ourselves by defeating them in the fight"
It's called PK, player killing, whoever can kill wins, not who has more time wins.
Not trash talking but, you do remember very well what happened when 2B YuXin and Dandelion dedicated 1 night to prevent your 2 parties from killing the boss, right?
Y'all weren't able to kill it till the server had to reset, how does that work out for you? 3 People being able to prevent 12 people from killing a boss just cause you can't get rid of these 3 players for a long period of time to allow you to kill the boss without players interfering. -
Accepted Answer
Madara wrote:
Dezyce wrote:
As for the jail system, I don't think we needed one? Maybe making some kind of new Firepit system for the pk would be better. Giving an example, WHENEVER there is a boss spawned in Port Plunder, only players who have the buff able to access Port Plunder. Whoever got defeated, buff removed and they can't get in Port Plunder for certain period of time, maybe 2 or 3 hours idk, consider players require some time to kill the boss. This could potentially eliminate other account issue I mentioned above, players required to login to get the buff in order to access Port Plunder.
there is a fire pit
no shit sherlock howd you figure that out -
Accepted Answer
Dezyce wrote:
What Kuri suggested is not bad at all, but hmmm 10 deaths is bit too much I think, maybe could lower bit idk.
What about cooldown time? i mean if healer receives minus karma (system like Rina said - 5 points for healing orange, 10 points for healing red one, and 15 points for healing black), then at death this correlates with the minutes for reviving.
Points and minutes may be different - analogue of prison.
*Karma for dps and tanks remains the same -
Accepted Answer
Dezyce wrote:
Look at what you just said, the stronger team get the boss, it seems that you agree my suggestion at certain degree.
Video here
When we dont have people for bosses - u take it easy. When u dont have people for bosses - we take it easy. Its honest. Before some players from your raid were not too lazy to def the boss until the server restart, and it was our problem, not the wrong system.
marion wrote:
They farmed and hold the world bosses for a very long time (actually many years)
Hi i was in Remi and we killed Okeanos, Hedo and Sraclone is new, noone hold it many years, but thank u for ur opinion its very informative -
Accepted Answer
Now I'm not gonna say this game is paid to win? But if you guys can't win a battle with all the All Stat VII, I think you guys should try to questions yourselves, why do we lose? Is it gear issue or teammate issue? That's a good start I would say, no offense by the way. -
Accepted Answer
Madara wrote:
Dezyce wrote:
4am kill boss, hey that's good for you. But sorry to say not everyone live in the same way as you do, be realistic, we all have life, don't take it personal. I believe the old system are great, but hmmm everything changes as time goes on, and I do believe that a new way of pk would bring freshness to the current players. Anyway, that's up to Sedy what would he decide.
Video here
everyone has a personal life and not everyone has the opportunity to always log on to a pvp , you have to understand this like the rest you just want a new pvp system for your own benefit
but understand, we have been playing this game for a very long time, we all woke up for pvp bosses at any time convenient for us, be it night, morning or day
Many of us have already grown up , but this does not mean that if we have grown up , the game should change for us okay?
there are other players and younger than us who will like to fight for 2 hours or more
so why should Sedy change something for us because we've grown up?
everything you offer is already in the game in one form or another
want fast fight - bf arena
want pvp up to 1 death? okay - fire pit
do you want long pvp? okay leggo - okeanos\ hedora
want fast pvp in map? - exca
I don't see the point of adding some new pvp system
but the changes in karma for the healers must be changed and how it will be, it is up to the Sedy
aw this video those were glorious days
thanks for the nostalgia
Why would you see it as 'my benefits'? I always thought you guys have more experienced PVP players, this should favor you guys more to be honest. Game doesn't need to change for us, understandable, that's why any better idea is acceptable for me. Yes I know that some players want to pk for hours, the old system not necessarily have to be completely removed, it can be use in some other way, maybe when there are no any bosses?
I already said it, Battlefield and Firepit are relatively small map, the amount of players join battlefield are quite low, players could simply throw the game when they don't feel like playing it, cause it's random matchmaking. If you guys want a long lasting battle, why not just make a custom event for yourselves, or maybe Sedy could make some sort of limited time event for you guys, who knows? (just for fun if you guys don't need reward)
The karma system really won't do much for the pk, like it's been in the game for years, it still frustrate people over time. Why not give something new a try? Then give some feedback on it. What Kuri suggested is not bad at all, but hmmm 10 deaths is bit too much I think, maybe could lower bit idk.
You guys don't have to be dominant in this game, there is always win and lose, that's just how it is. Why not just try to be confident, trust your teammate, and build a stronger team, maybe you guys can win easily, no one knows. Remember this, time efficient, less stress, more fun. If you don't enjoy PK then you probably won't having fun, and you guys take the boss without ANY interference, of course there is no stress for you guys. No troubles doing bosses? you guys take it as granted, cause you don't have time issue.
Good old days eh
-
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Im not defending my advantage. I'm defending the old game system. When you farmed bosses without any interference - no one thought about new ways to kill the boss. Until this day, these bosses have always been taken by those who are stronger at all (have ppl have time too). When Tundro was the tastiest boss on the official server, my guild would set alarms for 4am to come in and pick it up. We fought for 5 hours sometimes, no one cried. if you want loot - go play, help ur newbies to lvl up, farm lq - that gives more strong ppl for fighting. Don’t wanna help anyone - make second character and farm for yourself.
U wanna log in for 2 hours and take raid boss after mini pvp. But this content sounds like battlefield really.
They farmed and hold the world bosses for a very long time (actually many years) because no one can prevent them from doing so from your side. So what is your point then? You guys only managed to get the world bosses when most of the players on their side have stopped playing. Why not "TRY TO UNDERSTAND" what he is implying first before you go bananas. -
Accepted Answer
Dezyce wrote:
4am kill boss, hey that's good for you. But sorry to say not everyone live in the same way as you do, be realistic, we all have life, don't take it personal. I believe the old system are great, but hmmm everything changes as time goes on, and I do believe that a new way of pk would bring freshness to the current players. Anyway, that's up to Sedy what would he decide.
Video here
everyone has a personal life and not everyone has the opportunity to always log on to a pvp , you have to understand this like the rest you just want a new pvp system for your own benefit
but understand, we have been playing this game for a very long time, we all woke up for pvp bosses at any time convenient for us, be it night, morning or day
Many of us have already grown up , but this does not mean that if we have grown up , the game should change for us okay?
there are other players and younger than us who will like to fight for 2 hours or more
so why should Sedy change something for us because we've grown up?
everything you offer is already in the game in one form or another
want fast fight - bf arena
want pvp up to 1 death? okay - fire pit
do you want long pvp? okay leggo - okeanos\ hedora
want fast pvp in map? - exca
I don't see the point of adding some new pvp system
but the changes in karma for the healers must be changed and how it will be, it is up to the Sedy
aw this video those were glorious days
thanks for the nostalgia -
Accepted Answer
Look at what you just said, the stronger team get the boss, it seems that you agree my suggestion at certain degree.
Let's say we pk for an hour with the suggestions I made, and we failed to kill the boss within the remaining 2 hours. There are only two way for this, we either do pk again while still trying to kill the boss, or we just give up. On the other hand, you have plenty of time to play after all these pk, means you STILL kill the boss pretty easily, that's an advantage for you, isn't this is what you just said 'killing the boss without any interference'?
I had to say there is no new way to kill bosses lol, only Sedy able to make any changes to the bosses. Technically Sedy is the one to make ' new mechanic' for the bosses, look at Hedorah it's a totally new mechanic for all of us. We as a player, what we do is to figure out how to kill it, please do correct me if I'm wrong.
4am kill boss, hey that's good for you. But sorry to say not everyone live in the same way as you do, be realistic, we all have life, don't take it personal. I believe the old system are great, but hmmm everything changes as time goes on, and I do believe that a new way of pk would bring freshness to the current players. Anyway, that's up to Sedy what would he decide.
I have nothing else to convince you anymore, this is my overall opinion for this topic. I would like to drop a video down here, maybe you guys could take a look, and get some inspiration from it. Also @Madara take part in this event, isn't he always ask for a 6v6 team pk? Maybe this suggestion are good for him idk,I think this is what peak battle should looks like, at least for me. I know it's different from pk, even though this is a custom event for union, but everyone take part in it are fully fooded and take it seriously. Oh oh of course there is reward for the winner, don't forget that.
Video here -
Accepted Answer
Im not defending my advantage. I'm defending the old game system. When you farmed bosses without any interference - no one thought about new ways to kill the boss. Until this day, these bosses have always been taken by those who are stronger at all (have ppl have time too). When Tundro was the tastiest boss on the official server, my guild would set alarms for 4am to come in and pick it up. We fought for 5 hours sometimes, no one cried. if you want loot - go play, help ur newbies to lvl up, farm lq - that gives more strong ppl for fighting. Don’t wanna help anyone - make second character and farm for yourself.
U wanna log in for 2 hours and take raid boss after mini pvp. But this content sounds like battlefield really. -
Accepted Answer
We don't necessarily have to make a comparison with Firepit/Battlefield/Duel? Current Firepit only comes with fixed amount of reward, and it is a fixed small map nonetheless.
Use your imagination, imagine a bigger map with different system, maybe we could have custom pks in different maps, possibly every map? (we don't have the need to stay on one map) Players could make an ambush in certain map or area (encourage players to explore the maps), this also allow players to run around instead of just stand and fight, Sniper/Sharpshooter once again able to play their role? possibly with Long Range build, and etc. Like I mentioned above, it all depends on your teamwork, if you don't trust your team's capabilities, either train harder or give up that's your call.
Firepit has it own issue, whoever get in first able to do spawn killing in the first place. Now I'm not sure if this will happen with bigger maps? But Sedy will implement something better, or prevent spawn killing to be specific.
As for what Bagheera said, I only see her trying to defense her advantage, but I'm making this suggestions for every players, just think from every aspect. Even myself don't get any benefits from it. I'm Sniper class, and everybody knows that it is a very VERY squishy class, I could be the one that got sent out earlier than anyone else, no? So don't get me wrong, I'm open-minded, surely someone else will figure out something with better idea, I will take it.
Actually you know what? Ignore how fast the battle would be, fun come first. I'm talking about fair and square pk fight, if both team have similar strength, I'm sure it will at least last for 30mins or so, that's why I mentioned the 'buff' have to last for 2/3 hours long. Everyone should use whatever advantage they have, yeah I don't disagree that to be honest. But hmmm you won firepit, you get fragment. You won battlefield, you get battlefield points to buy stuff. You won pks, you get boss loot, simple as that. -
Accepted Answer
Ive been in pvp for a few times and noticed that changing karma system on healers doesnt make any difference at all, lets say it does but its only minimal.
Im thinking about totally removing the karma system and changing it to a certain amount of deaths before being sent to prison.
-The certain amount of deaths before going to jail is only applicable when THERE IS a world boss that spawned in that pk map. Say 10 maximum deaths and youre going to jail for an hour but ofc if youve been killed by the boss/mobs, it doesnt add up to your total maximum deaths. By this, both raids would have a chance to kill the boss regardless what time zone they have. They just need to kill and kill til enemies are all sent to prison. I think this favors both raids since pk-ing while controlling your karma is kinda pointless and time consuming and only beneficial to those people that has a lot of free time.
We are doing pk for loots, if the karma system is not changed/adjusted, only 1 raid could take all world bosses since all they have to do is disturb, make the pk as long as possible until the enemy gives up because of time -
Accepted Answer
Dezyce wrote:
Lucifer wrote:
But IMO
I don't see that Karma system in general being of any use.
No matter how that current system is adjusted, it never really functioned nor will function as it is supposed to.
Never really allowed a side to get whatever objective they're fighting for if both sides have an equal amount of players.
My suggestion will remain as always, 1 fight
You die you're out. Just as simple as that.
I couldn't agree more on this, I had similar thought back in old days, but I never point it out, some others might disagree with me more or less.
Reason why I'm suggesting to make it quick and simple fight, is because most players in this game have different time zone, and boss's spawn time itself is a problem, not everyone has the time/chance to join the boss fight.
Current boss's spawn time actually only benefits one team, whoever have more time to play, will get the boss in the end. Example, 9pm GMT+8 Sunday - Okeanos spawn time, for players who live in this time zone most likely can only play for 3 hours, they gotta work or study on the next day. Let's say they don't have to work or sleep, they continue pk for like 2 hours, and try to do the boss for another 1/2 hours? Obviously not everyone have the same resistance able to stay up that late, and I'm pretty sure most of the player are mentally drained by that time, they will give up eventually, what's the point here?
Now, think of a bigger picture, I'm not trying to ask to change the boss spawn time, I simply looking forward to have a balance, good pvp fight, whoever wins the fight get the boss, that's it. Talking about balance for current state, some players have more than one account, they could logged in another account, and causing troubles for the other team, so the winner can't get the boss even they have won the battle, which is kinda stupid? (I think)
U wanna make raid bosses fast like fp, why? Why people who can fight more than one hour should fight 15 minutes bc someone don’t have a time? Why people who made more that one character should go only with one because someone don’t have a time or lazy to make more than one. It’s FREE PVP MAPS and raid bosses… everyone should use all their advantages. Don’t have a time? People who have a time will kill boss then. Don’t have another character after ur main died? Go sleep and people who have other characters will kill boss then. Do you want to fight fast and fair? duel a friend -
Accepted Answer
Dezyce wrote:
As for the jail system, I don't think we needed one? Maybe making some kind of new Firepit system for the pk would be better. Giving an example, WHENEVER there is a boss spawned in Port Plunder, only players who have the buff able to access Port Plunder. Whoever got defeated, buff removed and they can't get in Port Plunder for certain period of time, maybe 2 or 3 hours idk, consider players require some time to kill the boss. This could potentially eliminate other account issue I mentioned above, players required to login to get the buff in order to access Port Plunder.
there is a fire pit -
Accepted Answer
-1 karma per heal upto target's karma sounds nice. Same should work for any sort of buffs. Alts sitting afk outside of pk zone just for buffs look funny but that's it
Aoe heals should deduct 1 karma upto the lowest karma of the characters healed.
As for karma recovery, giving healers a fraction of positive karma gain if they healed a character who gained positive karma points within few seconds before the kill (2-10 seconds) sounds ok.
This would make healers suffer negative karma punishments and would put them in an extremely vulnerable position, exactly where they should be, being the main driver of a fight. However, they're only as vulnerable as the least careful member on their team, which sounds just about right. -
Accepted Answer
I would say without the karma system, players don't need to worry about the karma, and they don't have to CONTROL their karma. Look at the pk these days, what are they doing in the beginning? Waiting for each other and see who hit first, it's kinda like a clown move to me to be honest. Surely experienced player WILL control their karma better than others, but who want to stop fighting in the middle of the battle? Maybe some don't cause they literally don't care? Or they tend to have more healer on their side?
As for the jail system, I don't think we needed one? Maybe making some kind of new Firepit system for the pk would be better. Giving an example, WHENEVER there is a boss spawned in Port Plunder, only players who have the buff able to access Port Plunder. Whoever got defeated, buff removed and they can't get in Port Plunder for certain period of time, maybe 2 or 3 hours idk, consider players require some time to kill the boss. This could potentially eliminate other account issue I mentioned above, players required to login to get the buff in order to access Port Plunder. They 'could' also logged in earlier on second client to get the buff, but this possibly reduced the threat they did, since not everyone's alternate character are fully equipped with end game gears. Without the jail system, at least players able to do their own things, dungeons, battlefield and so on.
I'm sorry if I disgress back there, I still don't think making healer gain negative karma is the smartest move. Let me ask you guys a question, what are we pk-ing for? is it just for fun or are we trying to kill the boss for the loot?
There is no perfect solution, and I'm not saying mine suggestion are the best, of course there are pros and cons as always. I believe this is more healthy for the game, and might offer more playstyle than before, could also lead players to improve themselves for better teamwork, better team communication. This is more like a big battle that everyone prepared for, which probably make players eager to have more battle like this. Time efficient, less stress, more fun.
Some people might argue that how about new players, I'm sorry to say games these days don't treat newbie very well, so that's not my consideration. I probably suggest newbie stay out of the pk, and get the loot once it's all done. Newbies aren't necessary useless, if they do know how to play, that can be some huge role, but I don't think any players will leave any newbie staying alive. -
Accepted Answer
Lucifer wrote:
But IMO
I don't see that Karma system in general being of any use.
No matter how that current system is adjusted, it never really functioned nor will function as it is supposed to.
Never really allowed a side to get whatever objective they're fighting for if both sides have an equal amount of players.
My suggestion will remain as always, 1 fight
You die you're out. Just as simple as that.
I couldn't agree more on this, I had similar thought back in old days, but I never point it out, some others might disagree with me more or less.
Reason why I'm suggesting to make it quick and simple fight, is because most players in this game have different time zone, and boss's spawn time itself is a problem, not everyone has the time/chance to join the boss fight.
Current boss's spawn time actually only benefits one team, whoever have more time to play, will get the boss in the end. Example, 9pm GMT+8 Sunday - Okeanos spawn time, for players who live in this time zone most likely can only play for 3 hours, they gotta work or study on the next day. Let's say they don't have to work or sleep, they continue pk for like 2 hours, and try to do the boss for another 1/2 hours? Obviously not everyone have the same resistance able to stay up that late, and I'm pretty sure most of the player are mentally drained by that time, they will give up eventually, what's the point here?
Now, think of a bigger picture, I'm not trying to ask to change the boss spawn time, I simply looking forward to have a balance, good pvp fight, whoever wins the fight get the boss, that's it. Talking about balance for current state, some players have more than one account, they could logged in another account, and causing troubles for the other team, so the winner can't get the boss even they have won the battle, which is kinda stupid? (I think) -
Accepted Answer
banana wrote:
But what about those people who don't have so much free time, they can't spend 2,3,4,5 hours on pvp, but they want to get stuff from the boss
This reason, a solution with black karma for healers could speed up the process of completing pvp
Why pvp should be fast? We have fast type of fights - bf, fire pit. Raid bosses can’t be easy to farm, sometimes even without any fights u have to spend ur time for it.
(I remember that time when killing LM was possible with moolah only - pandora was near boss 24/7 and killed everyone) -
Accepted Answer
Lucifer wrote:
My suggestion will remain as always, 1 fight
You die you're out. Just as simple as that.
It’s fire pit
If need some way to punish healers - better to make some system with cooldown of revives? If u get -1 karma - that mean u can stand up after 1 minute. -
Accepted Answer
But IMO
I don't see that Karma system in general being of any use.
No matter how that current system is adjusted, it never really functioned nor will function as it is supposed to.
Never really allowed a side to get whatever objective they're fighting for if both sides have an equal amount of players.
My suggestion will remain as always, 1 fight
You die you're out. Just as simple as that. -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
Sedy wrote:
1. Deduct 1 Karma for every heal.
This option would allow the healer to eventually become Wanted and able to be sent to prison
.
This option is definitely not suitable. What about healing urself if u get minus karma? If healer being orange and heals himself that mean he heal orange player and getting more -karma. Even without the help to allies, the healer will turn black in 10 minutes
About sistem: ALL players receive negative karma for hits other players. AND ALL players have options for plusing karma, for example, killing another player with bad karma. It will be difficult to implement something like this for healers. How to get plus karma for healer? Just to sit at Terminus? Poorly represent)
Don't forget that the whole point of these changes would be for the PK to be decisive. Whoever wins gets the boss.
Not for the healers to die.
Healers dying isn't a solution to these endless PKs
They can just respawn and continue healing.
And as to get plus karma as a healer, maybe just to support a player who killed another player with bad karma.
But i think a healer should be worried about not gaining negative karma more than being worried about how will they get rid of the negative karma they gained because of their team being reckless. -
Accepted Answer
Hmmm, i think healers should be punished for healing a -ve karma person
And by punished i mean not just turn into unlawful with -10 karma
By punished i mean gain -1 karma everytime you heal a -ve karma player
Because these changes would be more logical, the healers would have to suffer from the consequences of their team being irresponsible/reckless and actually have a risk of going to jail like every other class
Otherwise the PK would last forever till one of both sides gives up on the boss
Which shouldn't be happening, imo the boss should be killable with PK interference
Cause let's imagine if both sides are willing to keep the PK on forever, since healers don't get punished
It would be very easy to just login tanks or alternative characters once your main characters get jailed and use them to annoy your enemies till your main characters are out of jail and so on till the server resets.
That literally defeats the purpose of PK as it is in the first place, for the sake of the boss.
But if healers being able to be sent to prison comes true, maybe it would solve that issue, maybe not.
The -10 karma option isn't really a solution as the purpose of these changes i believe is to actually be able to kill the boss when there's PK, not to kill the enemy.
It would also make fights more strategic, since 1 mistake could lead you to losing the fight and not everybody just recklessly casting skills with the mindset that even if they die and get jailed they can log weaker alternative characters and rely on their healers to support them while they prevent others from killing the boss, and drag this on and on forever.
Removing the healers(aka them getting sent to prison alongside their DPS) from that equation would make the boss killable as you can just easily get rid of these alternative characters who do not have well-geared healers on their sides. -
Accepted Answer
It seems to me that the option of sending a healer to prison is more logical
This is the same player as the others why they may be able to avoid the karma punishment system? a couple of years ago when there were a lot of people pvp lasted for hours and the main problem was just in the heals, because they did not have karma
If they can be kill to prison now won't it be a balance ?
Because when a dps class is killed and he ends up in prison, he just goes to the next character and this cycle lasts for hours, and in the end the winner is simply the one who has more characters in stock or those who have more free time, no?
But if the healer is in prison, he will have to have 2 healers in stock, or go to the dps class for pvp
But what about those people who don't have so much free time, they can't spend 2,3,4,5 hours on pvp, but they want to get stuff from the boss
This reason, a solution with black karma for healers could speed up the process of completing pvp
Experienced people who will control their karma should be able to send every member of the enemy to prison, no matter what class they use.
-
Accepted Answer
Avery wrote:
Im also wondering if you get that -10, does it just stand still after, meaning you can heal everyone while it slowly replenishes without decreasing even more? Will it work differently if we also using attack skills (or cards) to control enemy heroes?
Yes exactly. I was thinking to only set Karma to -10 if the healer is Neutral/Lawful and the target they heal is Unlawful, Chaotic or Wanted, or whatever of those we decide on. So once you become -10 Unlawful you can continue to heal without consequence and your Karma will tick back up to 0 and you become Neutral again. The point being to allow enemy players a window to damage you without their Karma decreasing, not really to impede the healer doing their job by making them Wanted and possibly sent to prison. Since healers are fewer and required for the PvE encounter you are likely fighting over, I'm not sure how comfortable I am making a system where it could end up causing them to be sent to prison and ruining their raid's chances of completing the PvE content - but will see how players feel about it.
If you do damage to a Neutral or Lawful player, you will of course still have your Karma deducted -1 as usual.
Avery wrote:
Second option sounds the best to me, but Karma gain from each penalties should be different. For example, if you heal Chaotic(Red) person you gain 10 -karma point, and if you heal Wanted(Black) you gain -20 karma points. It could be any numbers you find more suitable. (In case we heal Red person first, and right after we heal Black, will it sum up or just turn 10 into 20 -karma points?)
Yeh that could work also. Maybe -5 for healing an Unlawful, -10 for healing a Chaotic, and -20 for healing a Wanted player - or something along those lines.
I suggest it shouldn't sum up. I think just set it to -5/-10/-20 depending on the target's status and then no penalty for healing at all until you go back to Neutral. -
Accepted Answer
1. When they heal an Unawful (Orange), Chaotic (Red), or Wanted (Black) player.
I totally agree that this option is not suitable. In addition, as I remember correctly, player become orange once they hit enemy player, which means everyone would become orange immidiately making healers gain Karma really quick and may even end up making healer black.
Good point, and one of the reasons it would be better to just set the healer at -10 Karma (Unlawful) rather than -1 per heal. The -10 Karma will not take long to replenish. It doesn't necessarily need to be -10, could be -5 or whatever.
Im also wondering if you get that -10, does it just stand still after, meaning you can heal everyone while it slowly replenishes without decreasing even more? Will it work differently if we also using attack skills (or cards) to control enemy heroes?
Second option sounds the best to me, but Karma gain from each penalties should be different. For example, if you heal Chaotic(Red) person you gain 10 -karma point, and if you heal Wanted(Black) you gain -20 karma points. It could be any numbers you find more suitable. (In case we heal Red person first, and right after we heal Black, will it sum up or just turn 10 into 20 -karma points?) If we choose to set it as -1 (could also be higher for Wanted penalty, for example -2) Karma for each heal, we have around 10 healing skills, which means if we use all of them we get same -10 points, but gain more if we continue healing. It could only affect spammable(1s heals) or low cd ones and maybe short time buffs like Absorb.
Hope I didnt miss abything and understood everything correctly, just thinking which option would be the best, i would be fine with any you guys find the most suitable. -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
This option is definitely not suitable. What about healing urself if u get minus karma? If healer being orange and heals himself that mean he heal orange player and getting more -karma. Even without the help to allies, the healer will turn black in 10 minutes
Healing other players only of course, healing self would not cause Karma change
Bagheera wrote:
About sistem: ALL players receive negative karma for hits other players. AND ALL players have options for plusing karma, for example, killing another player with bad karma. It will be difficult to implement something like this for healers. How to get plus karma for healer? Just to sit at Terminus? Poorly represent)
Good point, and one of the reasons it would be better to just set the healer at -10 Karma (Unlawful) rather than -1 per heal. The -10 Karma will not take long to replenish. It doesn't necessarily need to be -10, could be -5 or whatever. -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
1. Deduct 1 Karma for every heal.
This option would allow the healer to eventually become Wanted and able to be sent to prison
.
This option is definitely not suitable. What about healing urself if u get minus karma? If healer being orange and heals himself that mean he heal orange player and getting more -karma. Even without the help to allies, the healer will turn black in 10 minutes
About sistem: ALL players receive negative karma for hits other players. AND ALL players have options for plusing karma, for example, killing another player with bad karma. It will be difficult to implement something like this for healers. How to get plus karma for healer? Just to sit at Terminus? Poorly represent)
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