I would agree on this if there would also be a ratio on bosses difficulty as well. Since DMG will get much higher; everything would more or less feel much faster in the long run. *amused* I really dont like dungeons to be super easy since..most already are XD

And Melee now all have to depend on sorc and wizard to get x2 dmg and even with that buff apply sorc and wiz are still gonna be more needed than melee. The point of 100% boss dmg for melee is to buff them up so they can do solo dungeon faster which make them become more desirable. Making them depend on Magic class to get x2 dmg is just gonna make it worse since c'mon get real, when did people actually need more than 1 or 2 melee in party or even raid?

I agree with this, maybe instead of just putting 100%+ for both types of dmg on the magic class, why not put 100% MAGIC boss damage up on physical damage dealer classes (meaning both rogues and warriors, this can be used to make up their few population numbers since everyone goes mage nowadays)? The physical version of that can be added as the buff on the magic classes. .....this could be irritating to deal with (esp if you want to solo) but we need to balance things out a little bit; melee/phy ranged classes are getting too little attention :c

I'm voting no here. Recently i was in a lisk I raid, well it wasn't even a full raid it was two freaking parties and Lisk was down to 3% and the entire raid parities had to STOP and wait almost a full minute before Rhine spawned. The damage output is to great already. this is just overkill and will make the fights the bosses. the GAME boring. Please reconsider.

In short sedy you yourself didn't want to see another "Beserkers or Sorc online" version of Iris like before. What you are suggesting will and very well may turn the game to a Wizards and sorc online.. There is already a shortage in tanks in fighting parties recently. And now things like Lisk Hard and IDQ some runs don't even REQUIRE a tank. you will slowly start Xing out the need for melee if this happens so again. please reconsider.

Vote: No

Yeah agree with this too

which one lol? mine or the one that said Melee get 100% magic buff and Magic get 100% physic buff?

What do you mean, "and melee now all have to depend"? So what if melee have to depend on a Sorc or Wizard to get the buff? Right now you don't even get invited for a dungeon let alone get a double boss damage buff. The point of this is NOT to buff your soloing potential because for the most part this game is designed to be played in a party.

Exactly, you don't currently need more than 1 or 2 melee in a party or raid and that is why I made this suggestion. With other changes mentioned briefly above in the main post that you obviously didn't read + this, it should make a big difference to the melee classes.

How exactly would this makes things worse? It would do no such thing. Sorc/Wiz would still be just as sought after but only 1 per party would be necessary.

@Alistar boss damage is both physical and magic damage, it cannot be separated.

Yeh this is my main concern to be honest and the only real Con I can foresee. I'm not to worried about future content because there are plenty of options to counter this to keep it challenging but it's the existing content that will become a lot easier and I don't think it's a good idea to make adjustments to the old stuff.

1st of all, Melee should hold their own ground against magic. If the buff buff the whole party, it means without them they are still useless as hell in pve hence why the population of the game is full of Rdps magic.Therefore, your "what if melee have to depend on Sorc or Wizard to get buff" is not a good if I dont wanna say bad idea.
Yes, right now melee dont get to be invited and we melee expected you to balance it out, not stating something that obvious. Melee should have their own right on soloing dungeon as much as rdps. Why would Rdps be able to solo CH within 2mins (yes possible) while Melee has to take at least over 10~12mins same level gears and possibly same cards?

The amount of Physical class in game is outweight the amount of magic classes. That is why : currently you dont need more than 1 or 2 in a pt or raid is the problem. Also, it make no different with this because melee just wont get any attention from any party whatsoever since Sorc and Wiz still gonna kick melee's asses in PvE. Beak is pretty much what melee do and FYI Assassin and WW can do it just fine as well as tanker and other melees can just sit pretty at town. So if they dont have potential to deal dmg enough to be able to replace 2 to 3 rdps magic out of the party? they just gonna be useless. That is how it make thing worse.

Also, I obviously read it and I obviously play more than just testing and creating contain (no offense but seriously) to know be able to say this so dont ever say I dont read a post before I comment because I do.

Yeh as I said above to Ray, this is probably the only real Con of doing this - it will make the existing content a lot easier.

Not sure what you mean in your 2nd paragraph though. I don't see how this will make Sorc/Wiz any more popular or sought after than they already are right now. It WILL make them an essential member of dungeon and world boss parties for sure, but show me one party right now that doesn't have one in it.

How do you think this would reduce melee even more? You think that everyone will choose to be a Sorc/Wiz because of this? I very much doubt that would happen. It's probably 50/50 when it comes to people playing caster or melee - casters are not everybody's cup of tea.

Let me do you one better. Show me a party that HAS an actual melee member?

I've Seen IDQ done with nothing but a group of 4 sorc and 2 wiz.

For more parties it's been Sorc and wiz. when you see calls for parties now what is in mega? "LF RDPS" i haven't seen a "Looking for tanker. Look for Debuffer. Looking for Melee" in forever. so you tell me sedy?

I'm not disagreeing with you about the current situation, I'm asking how this change would make things worse for melee.

Let's take... Hmmm IDQ for example into account.

If the new way brings in what you are suggesting about the advanced party boss damage like you suggested. Then you would see entire parties wanting NOTHING but Wiz/sorc for only ONE reason. Spamming the skills and basicly taking turns. that being said it would be a RDPS fest for boss damage increase and with that said wouldn't it stack? a wiz and a sorc use it, it would in THEORY make it stack seeing as... two different classes... the melee classes wouldn't be needed if the skills can stack and spam like that. I'm sorry Sedy i HONESTLY see if you do this everyone will go sorc/wiz so they can just stack and spam those skills over and over. What's the point of having a tank if you can kill things fast enough? In my sister's case what's the point of a debuffer if the party can kill things due to the sorc and wiz's 100% boss damage skill effect? What's the point of PVE for melee classes if wiz and sorcs are stacking their skills like hell?

Who said anything about it stacking? Of course it wouldn't stack, that would be insane :P

So basically what you are saying is, fuck that I don't want to depend on another class being in my party, I want all of the melee classes to have their own 100% boss damage skill and I will be a complete c*nt to you until you see my way of thinking?

"The amount of Physical class in game is outweight the amount of magic classes That is why : currently you dont need more than 1 or 2 in a pt or raid is the problem."
I agree. That is exactly how it is now.

"Also, it make no different with this because melee just wont get any attention from any party whatsoever since Sorc and Wiz still gonna kick melee's asses in PvE."
Why is that? You don't think with 100% boss damage and the other changes I mentioned above, melee will be able to hold their own against Wiz/Sorc when it comes to damage and utility in dungeons?

"So if they dont have potential to deal dmg enough to be able to replace 2 to 3 rdps magic out of the party? they just gonna be useless."
And what if these changes do give melee the potential to do as much damage as the casters. What then?


You need to quit the personal attacks. I don't try to involve the community in decisions to be spoken to like that. You might think you are the expert because you spend a lot of time playing, but actually developing and managing it is a completely different ball game. You are correct, I do not play the game every day, and I have explained why to you and many others on several occasions. This is why I make this kind of post every now and again, to get opinions from those that actually play the game. So yeh, play nice or keep your tongue in your head.

Well, regardless of the outcome of this poll, something needs to be done. We can't just up the damage of the melee classes because that would have ramifications for pvp, so it needs to be boss damage coming from somewhere.

The options I can see at the moment are:

1. Remove boss damage buffs from casters.
Not really gonna happen. This would be wildly unpopular. Even though I personally think having permanent double damage is quite ridiculous, it's been part of Iris and the caster classes from the beginning. If I were to start a brand new fresh server - these skills probably wouldn't exist or at least have a very low chance of giving the buff, but removing them at this point would as I say, be wildly unpopular.

2. Make the caster skills grant the party the buff as per this suggestion.
Dependency on having a Sorc/Wiz in the party which obviously will not please everyone and also could be seen as unfair when it comes to soloing ability, but it's better than what you have now which is a big fat nothing.

3. Give every melee and every ranged physical class a boss damage skill/buff of their own.
Certainly possible but will raise issues with where exactly to put the buff? On which skill and will it be fair to all classes? Where in their skill tree will it be and will it be equal amount of points for each class to obtain it? Will it force people to rethink their build and will it completely destroy all other builds because they must have this buff?

4. Make changes to existing content to enforce a melee requirement (ie, bosses that can't be or can't easily be killed by casters alone).
This will definitely happen for new content but old content? I don't think so.

5. Remove the boss damage buffs from all caster skills and give everyone a passive skill in their 1st job that gives 20/40/60/80/100% Boss Damage.
Possibly the best option of all? If this were to happen, I could happily make adjustments to bosses knowing that EVERYONE will have 100% boss damage, or at least easily obtainable 100% boss damage. It would be a fairly simple matter of increasing boss HP where necessary.

I like Option 3 Since it will just need to add an additional invoked skill of 100% boss dmg to existing skills.

Since Ice Arrow 3 and Tempest Shock 3 are readily available right-off-the-bat after class change and requires just 1 SP to get the 100% boss damage, just add the 100% boss damage buff in one of the the readily available skills for all melee and every ranged physical after their respective 3rd class change also.

Example
Sniper: Dextrous Shot 3
Sharpshooter: Dextrous Shot 3 or Breach Fire 3

Wind Walker: Dextrous Jab 3
Assassin: Spiral Jab 3 ( Invoked skill duration may need some change if boss damage is added)

Templar: Torrent Slash 2 or Deviated Crash 3
Crusader: Grave Wounds 2 or Beastial Impact 3
Soul Blader: Tyrant Strike 2 ( Invoked skill duration may need some change if boss damage is added)

Champion: Wind Cleave 2 or Deviated Crash 3
Vanquisher: Comet Strike 2 or Shockwave 2
Myrmidon: Tyrant Strike 2 ( Invoked skill duration may need some change if boss damage is added)

Let us not forget the healers in case they want some buff too.

Saint: Devine Arrow 3
Prophet: Destructive Incantation 3

Since the skills are the very first thing available after class change and will just add an additional invoked skill of 100% boss dmg there is no need to change the skill build of players.

*tilts head* Regarding the 100% passive boss dmgs and what not if its going to happen, how will RDPS differ from a melee if thats the case aside from being ranged? Lol. Since, correct me if I'm wrong, but RDPS is really meant to be the higher damagers to anything. Wouldn't giving all classes boss damage just render RDPS rather obsolete? -- Ignoring the fact that most of the server has an rdps character since it's still good for farming lol so it's population shouldnt shift; but yeah >.>".

I mean perhaps its too advantageous for melee? They're skills are already jam packed with loads of debuffs in every hit, couple it with higher damage for bosses will seriously be a game changer in terms of their solo-ability. At least with it being a buff--from an RDPS, RDPS still have some ace that its rightfully theirs. So basically you're totally gonna pair up RDPS + Melee in parties to take advantage of this buff.

Im not really sure, maybe I need to wallow in thoughts for longer on it xD

Contrary to belief Ecro, a raid does needs melee members and a lot of them. But (at least when I make the raid) we take into consideration the HP and Def and over all difficulty of the boss/dungeon we're doing. For example, if you have LiskI for a normal non-headache run. you would need a minimum of 3 GOOD RDPS worth of Damage, a tank, a debuffer and a healer. Now thats the basic build of a party for lisk. (Good means they know the drill in LiskI and wont really cause problems even if they died)

Then we increase with each member most of which are voluntary rdps (cause theres just too many in Remi LOL); if ever there are melees I'd rather them either different classes or give different debuffs each. That way it all stacks and they have a role to do. I cannot expect RDPS to be just there to bam slam thankyou mam Lisk. It's gonna take 15 mins to kill them if I do that -_-. Melees do have a role, its a very important one -- but its not damaging the boss. (Which makes it a bit hard for me to accept Sedy's suggestion lol)

Unfortunately or fortunately, I cannot find myself to agree on Sedy's passive boss damage and taking away a caster's "ace" in the game. Idk I feel like it's the only thing left to create a line between other classes (who keeps getting beefed up in pvp lol) and rdps xD""

All dungeons require a tank psht but you have to take into consideration the level gap. CI still needs a tank (or a very strong class with high def/goodbuild to tank) -- unlikely =P. I know for a fact Im pissed off when I do not have a tank for GT. Tanks are needed. FInding good tanks however *rolls eyes*....is like expecting Darcel to log in iris tomorrow morning. Whereas LiskH? lvl 75. WGI? LI? DI? Lvl 75. We're 85 already, we're bound to over power a dungeon. Like come on, as if I need a tank for CH. 68 vs 85?

Come to think of it. If all melee classes have these "100% boss damage" then, this would probably cause an imbalance to debuffers (Assassins/WindWalkers/SharpShooters/Snipers).

E.g. (Circus hard)
Yes, currently a Sorcerer can finish CH in 2-3 mins. Now let's take an Assassin for example. Imagine if it has 100% boss damage and with its 101 debuffs, an Assassin can finish it even before a sorcerer does.

Correct me if im wrong, but mail users' existence are to debuff/assist and not to be a "dps" class. I am not completely against about the 100% boss damage suggestion, but i'd like to point this out since i play a mail user myself, also, if in any case this happens i dont want to see 101 mail users in terminus x))

Ciao.

AH btw this post was pertaining to the comments i've read above not on the main post. But anyways, that's at least what i thought about it.

I'm not really sure that is something we should worry about - it's not really the caster classes defining ability is it, extra boss damage, or at least it shouldn't be. Even if both melee and casters had it, they are still completely different classes in every way and I highly doubt it would make anyone obsolete - casters still have the major advantage of being ranged and standing well clear of splash damage from bosses and whatever else.

I still think the original suggestion of turning the casters skills into a party buff would be the best option. This way the casters will still be highly sought after as they are now and the other members of the group will benefit from the extra boss damage. Nobody has to mess around with their builds adding new skills and whatever and everyone is happy except those that want to be as good as a caster when soloing stuff that shouldn't even really be soloed, but anyway... I'm just trying to come up with alternatives so that everyone can see exactly what they are.

1st of all, I wont just post to personally attack anyone unless they deserve it so lets get that clear. Also, your depending idea is just completely bad because most of your raid/dungeon contain doesnt allow melees to be desirable and the game itself is already favor magic class since Gpotato let the game out with their fast dps ability + boss dmg. Again why would you take more melees in a party if you can just take a sorc or a wiz to deal x2 by themselves and deal higher dmg in pve? Sure old dungeon people might have mercy and take them with you but Golden temple and especially Golden temple, Namazu, and mostly the new 87 Glaceon you posted? They can get screw over for all Rdps/tanker and debuffer care.

2nd, no with that depending situation? No because sorc/wiz glitch will always be better and faster than any melee since the amount of glitch melee is down to the count of fingers.

3rd, in party if there are no more than 2 melees it is understandable but in a raid with 18 slots and there are no more than 2 melees then that is extremely and poorly developed. That is why I have to talk about the outnumbered amount of Melee in the game with ratio of melee in a raid.

4th, I am playing nice and holding my tongue. You havent known me yet when I stop playing nice so keep that to yourself.

too late, already have 101 mail user around lol. Also, sorc glitch/wiz glitch still going to be faster dmg than other classes if they dont know how to glitch them so it is not that bad. Oi aqua, go learn glitch on your mail lol.

You can say that yea, but their purpose is to PvP. If this happens, you would "probably" see more than we have now. And it's easy to glitch on assassin lol. Plus i play casually. I only log when ray needs me, and or if i feel like it.

As I said before, I am making changes to dungeons to make them more melee friendly so why wouldn't you take melee if they can stand their ground against casters damage with the double boss damage buff? I don't see a reason. Not everyone can glitch cast. You would also benefit from their different buffs and debuffs. Golden Temple especially has been adjusted yet again to make it more friendly for melee. Namazu indeed, not melee friendly at all. Glaceon you can't really comment because you don't know what I will do with that encounter.

Good, lets keep it that way shall we. I don't spend my time doing this to take crap from random people.

This idea tells like " yay we can finish lisk insane with a single party" :3
Sounds boring tho.

Hello,

Just my two cents.

1. I understand Sedy's point in doing this buff for the party. It benefits melee in a way (I think) since if this buff is activated (roped?/aurad?/boss debuff?), melee dps has a chance to get invited to parties to deal reasonable damage output to bosses.

1.a. The question that's bothering me though, why does this skill have to go to the casters? Why can't it be on melee characters?
1.b. I guess for me, it doesn't solve the issue that a party can still opt not to have a melee dps because you can still choose rdps over melee and rdps still have the advantage of being ranged and not risking much. I think this is Vulcan's point. Sorry I don't know if I'm correct about the rdps because I never played one. :P

2. I have to go with Dothackkite's idea but with a little modification. If it is possible to "stack" and "modify" the amount of bonus damage of each debuff to bosses, then why not try to have percentages debuffs for each class/category?

2.a For example
2.a.I. magic casters can have 25% boss damage to everyone that can't be stacked by other magic casters de/buff
2.a.II. melee dps can have a 50% boss damage to everyone that can't be stacked by other melee dps de/buff. I'm just thinking that melee should have higher percentage on this because they are risking splash damage from the boss to apply this de/buff.
2.a.III. *insert class or category here* can have a *insert value here* to ... that can't be stacked by the same class or category that used it.
Basically, the same catergory de/buff can't be stacked but different category de/buff can.
This way, if we want an additional 50% damage to a boss, then the party needs a melee dps to the party. If pure casters are on the party, then the highest bonus they can get is the 25% only and so on.
2.b I just don't know if this is possible though or if it affects the game too much :P

Thank you!
Patata

Done reading through all comments *-* tbh i still dont get why people will choose no to this. What this basically does is just allow melee dps (two handed & dual blade) as a "Viable" (although not desirable) dps in dungeon if you somehow cant fill your dps slots. In fact i believe that with this buff melee might out-damage a full team of mrdps with the right team composition. Sides sorc and wiz will benefit from having a variety of rope/aura skills they prev wont even consider.

It will still be annoying seeing sorc/wiz flash farming CH though haha.

All else fails i propose nerf sorc boss dmg to 10% then give 50% to one of the low level passive of melee users

You will never be able to solve the issue of people preferring ranged characters for dungeons tbh, not without completely overpowering melee. The thing is with melee, they need to sacrifice certain other strengths in order to get close to casters damage and up until now that hasn't really been possible for them because they can't sacrifice their survivability for more damage because of the way the content is at the moment. It's something I am trying to address with the next and future updates.

Regardless of those updates though, melee will never reach the heights of damage that casters currently reach on bosses unless they have the boss damage buff themselves (and probably never will still because of other reasons), which is what this is all about really, if they should get it and how to give it to them.

Your stacking idea is a nice one, but unfortunately this has to be a buff to the player, not a debuff to a boss. Whilst we could give everyone an aura skill that stacks, I don't really want to mess with the casters existing boss damage skills, even though I find it a bit ridiculous having permanent double boss damage, it's always been that way and whenever I tend to mess too much with these things there is uproar and people rage quit.

QQS wrote:

All else fails i propose nerf sorc boss dmg to 10% then give 50% to one of the low level passive of melee users

Pfft. Date back to when Sedy released Sorcs, we've been nerfed more than 4 times. LOL *rolls eyes*

Not really that simple unfortunately. If it's added to existing skills it needs to be fair to all classes - equal duration, equal invoke chance, equal in the tree and amount of points required to obtain it etc. etc.

A lot of these first in the tree skills already have invokes, some of which are not 100% and they all have different cooldowns too. Then we have problems with class like Myrmidon because all of it's skills fall in certain stances meaning Myrmidon would be forced into one of them to use this skill.

The more I think about it the more I am swayed to giving a passive buff in the 3rd job tree and only for the damage dealing classes. I'm actually thinking it should be around 50% too rather than 100% like the casters, and come in 5 steps, 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 points, meaning you would need to sacrifice something else for it if.

Anyway no rush, still mulling it over. Might not happen at all yet.