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There are a few things I’d like to say.
First, why do you want to nerf a dying class, Sharp Shooter? Their trap is op, but aside from it, what else can they do?
Most of their skills’ cooldown is twice or 3 times longer than Sniper. Their main strength comes from trap and several debuff skills. Other than that, SharpShooter is not much as a threat.
If you want to change their trap’s effect, please make it removable by using trans. Wind Walker’s trap is evitable if we use trans.
Now look at their counterpart, Sniper. You said Sorcerer Exposure is too OP because it reduces 8k Magical DEF and it’s a first job skill. Manticore Sting reduces 7.5k Physical DEF and has 30s CD. If we calculate the rate of reducing DMG per unit time. We have 8k/60 = 133.3 DEF/s for Exposure, 7.5k/30= 250.0 DMG/s for Manticore Sting 1. Moreover, thanks to its 30s cooldown, it’s a lot easier to use than exposure. You can easily switch target every 30s.
Sharp Shooter has Manticore Sting as well, but their 3rd job Manticore Sting is 15k Physical DEF with 30s cooldown. I repeat it is 3RD JOB skill.
You changed Exposure to 4k, so you should do the same to Manticore Sting 1, or maybe even more because its cooldown is 30s.
Many people also said Bleed is too OP. As far as I know, there are 3 classes that have Bleed- Crusader, Assasin, and Sniper.
Crusader: 2 Bleeds. Blood Congeal takes out 40% HP with 5s stun effect, Rupture does 32% with 4s immobilize and silence effect. Cooldown is 90s. Rate of HP per unit time is [(40+32)*2]/90= 1.6%/s. Other effect: Rupture: deal 30% DMG. Other effects: Blood Congeal: AOE affects 6 people in 8m radius while Rupture is single target only.
Sniper: 1 Bleed: 12% HP after 2s with stun effect, cooldown is 16s. Rate: 12/16= 0.75%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 4 people in 2m radius, deals 55% DMG and ignore 65% Physical DEF.
Assassin: 1 bleed. 20% HP after 4s with stun effect, cooldown is 100s. Rate: 0.2%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 6 people in 3m radius.
One of Crusader has pretty low hit chance. While in Sniper and Assassin case, they can hit almost every time.
Out of those 3, Sniper’s bleed is the best in term of letting you use it whenever you want, and chance to get removed by Ailment is low. Not to mention that it hits ridiculously high with 55 % added DMG while ignoring 65%DEF. It is double ITD. Besides Bleed, Crusader is weak. Before they can get close to you, they're probably dead. 2 seconds is too short to use ailment. That makes Sniper’s bleed inevitable.
And correct me if I’m wrong. None of gunners’ skills has actually visual effect except for the blast at their guns. Wizard’s skills have visual effects before they land on target, so do Sorcerer’s. That makes their skills evitable. Gunner’s skill? I don’t think so.
You said you would look at Sniper again. I guess what I’ve said can contribute to your further change.
A few months ago, you decided to halve Debuffer’s Magic Debuff. So instead of -10k All DEF, it changed to 10k Physical and 5k Magical. Why is there no change for Sorcerer’s Tempest Shock and Wizard’s Chilling Shock which reduce 8k All DEF? Do they even deal Physical DMG?
You do know - magic def debuff can’t stack, don’t you? However, physical stack hella. I have around 40k physical def. Do you know how much I have when I’m debuffed in Battlefield? Less than 10k. That’s ridiculous. 10k DEF and 0 Phyical Def doesn’t have much difference.
Imagine you’re killing a boss, and physical classes complain they don’t have 100% boss DMG buff. Look, their Physical DEF debuff is everywhere. Sorcerer’s and Wizard’s skills, gunners’ skills. tanker, Soul Blader, Crusader, debuffer, etc. And you gave them 50% boss DMG.
Only one class that should have their -DEF debuff stackable is debuffer, so they can remain useful in PvE.
You’re concerned about us being too strong for current PvE content. Why don’t you change Wizard and Sorcerer’s All DEF Debuff to 8k Mag and 4k Phy or remove Physical DEF completely? That would not affect their solo ability in PvE or PvP. Only group gank would be negatively affected here if there is Physical class.
Making Physical stackable can’t solve the gcast issue. I once did Crystalisk Hard in 5 minutes with 3 sorcerers, and one of them can gcast all their skills. However, when debuffer joined us, we did it in 3 and a half minutes. Gcast is great in solo, but in group, it’s more or less nullified. Not to mention that, the more people we have, the laggier it is.
Someone said Prophet circle is op. Yes, it kinda is, but they must stay in its range. However, the problem is it can be used with Push Circle or Mana Circle. Now, it’s truly op.
Last but not least, everyone can self-heal now. Where is healer’s place? *Short, but meaningful*.
TL/DR:
1. Exposure is nerfed, while Manticore Sting, which is 1st class skill and -7.5k Phys DEF, remains the same.
2. Bleed is op, but some bleed is evitable, some isn't.
3. Magical Def Debuff isn't stackable while Physical is.
4. Prophet Cirle *short, read it*
5. Everyone can self-heal.
First, why do you want to nerf a dying class, Sharp Shooter? Their trap is op, but aside from it, what else can they do?
Most of their skills’ cooldown is twice or 3 times longer than Sniper. Their main strength comes from trap and several debuff skills. Other than that, SharpShooter is not much as a threat.
If you want to change their trap’s effect, please make it removable by using trans. Wind Walker’s trap is evitable if we use trans.
Now look at their counterpart, Sniper. You said Sorcerer Exposure is too OP because it reduces 8k Magical DEF and it’s a first job skill. Manticore Sting reduces 7.5k Physical DEF and has 30s CD. If we calculate the rate of reducing DMG per unit time. We have 8k/60 = 133.3 DEF/s for Exposure, 7.5k/30= 250.0 DMG/s for Manticore Sting 1. Moreover, thanks to its 30s cooldown, it’s a lot easier to use than exposure. You can easily switch target every 30s.
Sharp Shooter has Manticore Sting as well, but their 3rd job Manticore Sting is 15k Physical DEF with 30s cooldown. I repeat it is 3RD JOB skill.
You changed Exposure to 4k, so you should do the same to Manticore Sting 1, or maybe even more because its cooldown is 30s.
Many people also said Bleed is too OP. As far as I know, there are 3 classes that have Bleed- Crusader, Assasin, and Sniper.
Crusader: 2 Bleeds. Blood Congeal takes out 40% HP with 5s stun effect, Rupture does 32% with 4s immobilize and silence effect. Cooldown is 90s. Rate of HP per unit time is [(40+32)*2]/90= 1.6%/s. Other effect: Rupture: deal 30% DMG. Other effects: Blood Congeal: AOE affects 6 people in 8m radius while Rupture is single target only.
Sniper: 1 Bleed: 12% HP after 2s with stun effect, cooldown is 16s. Rate: 12/16= 0.75%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 4 people in 2m radius, deals 55% DMG and ignore 65% Physical DEF.
Assassin: 1 bleed. 20% HP after 4s with stun effect, cooldown is 100s. Rate: 0.2%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 6 people in 3m radius.
One of Crusader has pretty low hit chance. While in Sniper and Assassin case, they can hit almost every time.
Out of those 3, Sniper’s bleed is the best in term of letting you use it whenever you want, and chance to get removed by Ailment is low. Not to mention that it hits ridiculously high with 55 % added DMG while ignoring 65%DEF. It is double ITD. Besides Bleed, Crusader is weak. Before they can get close to you, they're probably dead. 2 seconds is too short to use ailment. That makes Sniper’s bleed inevitable.
And correct me if I’m wrong. None of gunners’ skills has actually visual effect except for the blast at their guns. Wizard’s skills have visual effects before they land on target, so do Sorcerer’s. That makes their skills evitable. Gunner’s skill? I don’t think so.
You said you would look at Sniper again. I guess what I’ve said can contribute to your further change.
A few months ago, you decided to halve Debuffer’s Magic Debuff. So instead of -10k All DEF, it changed to 10k Physical and 5k Magical. Why is there no change for Sorcerer’s Tempest Shock and Wizard’s Chilling Shock which reduce 8k All DEF? Do they even deal Physical DMG?
You do know - magic def debuff can’t stack, don’t you? However, physical stack hella. I have around 40k physical def. Do you know how much I have when I’m debuffed in Battlefield? Less than 10k. That’s ridiculous. 10k DEF and 0 Phyical Def doesn’t have much difference.
Imagine you’re killing a boss, and physical classes complain they don’t have 100% boss DMG buff. Look, their Physical DEF debuff is everywhere. Sorcerer’s and Wizard’s skills, gunners’ skills. tanker, Soul Blader, Crusader, debuffer, etc. And you gave them 50% boss DMG.
Only one class that should have their -DEF debuff stackable is debuffer, so they can remain useful in PvE.
You’re concerned about us being too strong for current PvE content. Why don’t you change Wizard and Sorcerer’s All DEF Debuff to 8k Mag and 4k Phy or remove Physical DEF completely? That would not affect their solo ability in PvE or PvP. Only group gank would be negatively affected here if there is Physical class.
Making Physical stackable can’t solve the gcast issue. I once did Crystalisk Hard in 5 minutes with 3 sorcerers, and one of them can gcast all their skills. However, when debuffer joined us, we did it in 3 and a half minutes. Gcast is great in solo, but in group, it’s more or less nullified. Not to mention that, the more people we have, the laggier it is.
Someone said Prophet circle is op. Yes, it kinda is, but they must stay in its range. However, the problem is it can be used with Push Circle or Mana Circle. Now, it’s truly op.
Last but not least, everyone can self-heal now. Where is healer’s place? *Short, but meaningful*.
TL/DR:
1. Exposure is nerfed, while Manticore Sting, which is 1st class skill and -7.5k Phys DEF, remains the same.
2. Bleed is op, but some bleed is evitable, some isn't.
3. Magical Def Debuff isn't stackable while Physical is.
4. Prophet Cirle *short, read it*
5. Everyone can self-heal.
Responses (17)
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Accepted Answer
First, why do you want to nerf a dying class, Sharp Shooter? Their trap is op, but aside from it, what else can they do?
Most of their skills’ cooldown is twice or 3 times longer than Sniper. Their main strength comes from trap and several debuff skills. Other than that, SharpShooter is not much as a threat.
If you want to change their trap’s effect, please make it removable by using trans. Wind Walker’s trap is evitable if we use trans.
Instead of trying to defend a skill that even you yourself label as "op", why not make suggestions on making the Sharp Shooter more viable? If you have ideas to better the class I'm all ears. Their sleep skill at the moment just doesn't work the way it was originally intended due to restrictions of trap/circle type skills so it will be changed.
Making a trans that gives immunity to sleep would work but I would prefer to change the skill entirely so that it isn't necessary to rely on trans, since that would also affect the other class sleep skills.
Now look at their counterpart, Sniper. You said Sorcerer Exposure is too OP because it reduces 8k Magical DEF and it’s a first job skill. Manticore Sting reduces 7.5k Physical DEF and has 30s CD. If we calculate the rate of reducing DMG per unit time. We have 8k/60 = 133.3 DEF/s for Exposure, 7.5k/30= 250.0 DMG/s for Manticore Sting 1. Moreover, thanks to its 30s cooldown, it’s a lot easier to use than exposure. You can easily switch target every 30s.
Sharp Shooter has Manticore Sting as well, but their 3rd job Manticore Sting is 15k Physical DEF with 30s cooldown. I repeat it is 3RD JOB skill.
You changed Exposure to 4k, so you should do the same to Manticore Sting 1, or maybe even more because its cooldown is 30s.
Sorcerer's Exposure was nerfed to directly nerf the Sorcerer because I felt they were way too strong when stacking both of their def reducing skills. Sniper needed buffing, not nerfing, reducing theirs would have served no purpose. However, I did say I would continue to look at the Sniper and there will be some changes made, but Manticore probably won't be one of them at this point.
Many people also said Bleed is too OP. As far as I know, there are 3 classes that have Bleed- Crusader, Assasin, and Sniper.
Crusader: 2 Bleeds. Blood Congeal takes out 40% HP with 5s stun effect, Rupture does 32% with 4s immobilize and silence effect. Cooldown is 90s. Rate of HP per unit time is [(40+32)*2]/90= 1.6%/s. Other effect: Rupture: deal 30% DMG. Other effects: Blood Congeal: AOE affects 6 people in 8m radius while Rupture is single target only.
Sniper: 1 Bleed: 12% HP after 2s with stun effect, cooldown is 16s. Rate: 12/16= 0.75%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 4 people in 2m radius, deals 55% DMG and ignore 65% Physical DEF.
Assassin: 1 bleed. 20% HP after 4s with stun effect, cooldown is 100s. Rate: 0.2%/s. Other effect: AOE affects 6 people in 3m radius.
One of Crusader has pretty low hit chance. While in Sniper and Assassin case, they can hit almost every time.
Out of those 3, Sniper’s bleed is the best in term of letting you use it whenever you want, and chance to get removed by Ailment is low. Not saying that it hits ridiculously high with 55 % added DMG while ignoring 65%DEF. It is double ITD. Besides Bleed, Crusader is weak. Before they can get close to you. 2 seconds is too short to use ailment. That makes Sniper’s bleed inevitable.
And correct me if I’m wrong. None of gunners’ skills has actually visual effect except for the blast at their guns. Wizard’s skills have visual effects before they land on target, so do Sorcerer’s. That makes their skills evitable. Gunner’s skill? I don’t think so.
I actually think it was a huge mistake putting percentage based dots/bleeds into the game in the first place and it is something I would like to remedy, either by replacing them with fixed amounts or replacing the skills completely. I don't think it would hurt the Assassin and Sniper very much at all but the Crusader would be destroyed and would need to be looked at properly. A short term solution to the problem might be to make them last longer with smaller ticks of damage so that they are more easily removed before they do all their damage but that would be an issue if they have stuns or other stuff as part of the skill.
A few months ago, you decided to halve Debuffer’s Magic Debuff. So instead of -10k All DEF, it changed to 10k Physical and 5k Magical. Why is there no change for Sorcerer’s Tempest Shock and Wizard’s Chilling Shock which reduce 8k All DEF? Do they even deal Physical DMG?
You do know - magic def debuff can’t stack, don’t you? However, physical stack hella. I have around 40k physical def. Do you know how much I have when I’m debuffed in Battlefield? Less than 10k. That’s ridiculous. 10k DEF and 0 Phyical Def doesn’t have much difference.
Imagine you’re killing a boss, and physical classes complain they don’t have 100% boss DMG buff. Look, their Physical DEF debuff is everywhere. Sorcerer’s and Wizard’s skills, gunners’ skills. tanker, Soul Blader, Crusader, debuffer, etc. And you gave them 50% boss DMG.
Only one class that should have their -DEF debuff stackable is debuffer, so they can remain useful in PvE.
You’re concerned about us being too strong for current PvE content. Why don’t you change Wizard and Sorcerer’s All DEF Debuff to 8k Mag and 4k Phy or remove Physical DEF completely? That would not affect their solo ability in PvE or PvP. Only group gank would be negatively affected here if there is Physical class.
The amount of magic defense reduction on physical classes debuffing skills was again to nerf the magic classes because they had many advantages over the physical classes, especially in pve. The last few patches have been about making physical classes more viable in pve which is why they were given a boss damage buff on their skills. Reducing or removing the amount of physical defense that the magic class debuffs granted would just be counter productive to that aim.
I do agree that the amount of stackable debuffs granting defense reduction have become a bit out of control though when it comes to pvp and I might look at grouping some of them up so they can't be stacked. I doubt it would negatively affect pve too much since it's rare that you have a lot of melee in a dungeon party and I can always adjust world/raid bosses defenses to compensate.
Making Physical stackable can’t solve the gcast issue. I once did Crystalisk Hard in 5 minutes with 3 sorcerers, and one of them can gcast all their skills. However, when debuffer joined us, we did it in 3 and a half minutes. Gcast is great in solo, but in group, it’s more or less nullified. Not to mention that, the more people we have, the laggier it is.
Not sure I understand your point here. What has physical debuffs got to do with gcast? Explain a bit please.
Someone said Prophet circle is op. Yes, it kinda is, but they must stay in its range. However, the problem is it can be used with Push Circle or Mana Circle. Now, it’s truly op.
Guess I agree to some extent but no mobility. The anti push/pull is the main problem but there are ways around it.
Last but not least, everyone can self-heal now. Where is healer’s place? *Short, but meaningful*.
Are you referring to HP Absorb? It's a problem in pve these days for sure. With such high damage output, the percentage based HP return has grown along with it. I have been considering reducing the amount of HP Absorb on all existing items in the game. Not really an issue in pvp though since damage output is a fraction of what you can do in pve.
However, not everyone has enough HP absorb and nobody but a healer can spam heal which is often required in pve and pvp, so no, not every can self heal and make healers useless. They are also there to remove those debuffs that so many of you like to complain about :P
Sorry if I missed anything but it wasn't exactly easy to read with so many different points. Just requote if I did and I will reply. -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
Instead of trying to defend a skill that even you yourself label as "op", why not make suggestions on making the Sharp Shooter more viable? If you have ideas to better the class I'm all ears. Their sleep skill at the moment just doesn't work the way it was originally intended due to restrictions of trap/circle type skills so it will be changed.
As of now, its cooldown is 1 minute. Wind Walker's trap last 5s, and it works as good as Sleep trap. I think sleep should be like Wind Walker's trap. I don't know why people let Wind Walker's trap slip through and go complain about SharpShooter.
Sedy wrote:
Sorcerer's Exposure was nerfed to directly nerf the Sorcerer because I felt they were way too strong when stacking both of their def reducing skills. Sniper needed buffing, not nerfing, reducing theirs would have served no purpose. However, I did say I would continue to look at the Sniper and there will be some changes made, but Manticore probably won't be one of them at this point.
My point is it is first class skill. It should never be that high. I pointed out SharpShooter has Manticore Sting 3, a 3rd job skill, which reduces 15k DEF. It's reasonable having that high for 3rd class. But 1st class, 7.5k every 30s, isn't it way too high compared to Exposure?
Sedy wrote:
I actually think it was a huge mistake putting percentage based dots/bleeds into the game in the first place and it is something I would like to remedy, either by replacing them with fixed amounts or replacing the skills completely. I don't think it would hurt the Assassin and Sniper very much at all but the Crusader would be destroyed and would need to be looked at properly. A short term solution to the problem might be to make them last longer with smaller ticks of damage so that they are more easily removed before they do all their damage but that would be an issue if they have stuns or other stuff as part of the skill.
Skip this since you understand my point here. As for solution, I can't think of anything at the moment. But let's put that on Top priority for future change.
Sedy wrote:
I do agree that the amount of stackable debuffs granting defense reduction have become a bit out of control though when it comes to pvp and I might look at grouping some of them up so they can't be stacked. I doubt it would negatively affect pve too much since it's rare that you have a lot of melee in a dungeon party and I can always adjust world/raid bosses defenses to compensate.
As you said, you can reduce boss physical DMG. That's the best solution for stackable debuff. I'm bringing this up because Physical DEF can get as low as 0 in PvP resulting in granting 100% ITD for all melee/gunner. That's why ITD needed fixing in the first place. Simple calculation: tanker debuff: 10k, sniper: 10k, wizard/sorcerer: 8k, Manticore 3: 15k. 10 + 10 + 8 + 15 = 43k. That's a wow factor you're having here. And I don't mention those percentage debuff that some classes have, and some lower but deadly stackable physical debuff from other melee. Just imagine having your debuff bar too long that they have to keep pushing each other so that you can see the most recent landed one.
Sedy wrote:
Not sure I understand your point here. What has physical debuffs got to do with gcast? Explain a bit please.
Gcast allows casters to burst out huge DMG in short period of time. Nonetheless, Physical debuff is stackable, as for now, their DMG is just as good as a caster. And caster burst DMG is mainly on boss while physical DMG is consistent throughout no matter what they're fighting against. If boss's Physical DEF is reduced, it could compensate their unable to gcast disadvantage. Perhaps, you could also raise Magical DEF.
To my knowledge, gcast helps in DPS-ing, but if you can't gcast, you can still be a good dpser. The difference is in PvP. That example is to prove debuffing plays a bigger role, not what dpsers you have in party.
Caster is favored because they're less likely to get killed. Gunners have joined the cool kid crew thanks to recent change (some need to be re-considered). I'd rather have Boss's DMG and DEF reduce to melee can survive better than give them bunch of stackable debuff which helps them in PvE as well as PvP.
The laggier, the harder to gcast. Some people claim that lag help gcast, but the rest complains they can't gcast at all.
Sedy wrote:
Are you referring to HP Absorb? It's a problem in pve these days for sure. With such high damage output, the percentage based HP return has grown along with it. I have been considering reducing the amount of HP Absorb on all existing items in the game. Not really an issue in pvp though since damage output is a fraction of what you can do in pve.
I mean almost everyone has self healing skill. All mail user have it, tankers have it, Wizard and Sorcerer have it, Vanquisher has it too, I guess. and Crusader with their bleed and stack with HP abs from weapon and skill. Soul Blader and Myrm might not be included here, but their HP abs is quite high. It turns Battlefield in to a "who runs faster" battle. They run away, heal, go back with full HP. Before, battlefield was better. I can't totally disagree with you on giving gunner self heal, but doing that so they can survive in battlefield or PvP in general isn't a solution. It's more like an improvisation.
But overall, I just want to point out healer is not that useful now even though you changed Roszack and fixed DMG absorb cap. My healer can barely find a place in PvE party. -
Accepted Answer
As of now, its cooldown is 1 minute. Wind Walker's trap last 5s, and it works as good as Sleep trap. I think sleep should be like Wind Walker's trap. I don't know why people let Wind Walker's trap slip through and go complain about SharpShooter.
I would guess that it's because WW trap is only 5s and there are plenty of ways to remove/avoid the stun, whereas SS trap is a 10s unavoidable sleep meaning you can be hammered by the SS for a whole 10s and do nothing about it.
My point is it is first class skill. It should never be that high. I pointed out SharpShooter has Manticore Sting 3, a 3rd job skill, which reduces 15k DEF. It's reasonable having that high for 3rd class. But 1st class, 7.5k every 30s, isn't it way too high compared to Exposure?
It is high yes, but as I said before, the real reason for reducing Exposure was to weaken Sorcs, not just because of the amount Exposure gave. At the time I was looking at ways to buff Snipers, not nerf their damage capabilities. Anyway, I will be looking at stacking physical def debuffs.
Gcast allows casters to burst out huge DMG in short period of time. Nonetheless, Physical debuff is stackable, as for now, their DMG is just as good as a caster. And caster burst DMG is mainly on boss while physical DMG is consistent throughout no matter what they're fighting against. If boss's Physical DEF is reduced, it could compensate their unable to gcast disadvantage. Perhaps, you could also raise Magical DEF.
To my knowledge, gcast helps in DPS-ing, but if you can't gcast, you can still be a good dpser. The difference is in PvP. That example is to prove debuffing plays a bigger role, not what dpsers you have in party.
Caster is favored because they're less likely to get killed. Gunners have joined the cool kid crew thanks to recent change (some need to be re-considered). I'd rather have Boss's DMG and DEF reduce to melee can survive better than give them bunch of stackable debuff which helps them in PvE as well as PvP.
Well that is exactly my intention, to make melee dps as good as casters in pve content. Casters already have the major advantage of being less likely to die since they can just stand back and cast their skills in most cases. Melee need to get up close and risk the likelihood that they will take massive damage, die, lose all their buffs, take up the healers time rezzing them and rebuffing etc. etc. and so the risk vs reward is very different. If anything, they should be on par, if not better at dealing damage than casters. I'm not even going to get into the gcasting thing which is another major advantage if you can master it. I do not even attempt to balance around that because it's not something everyone can do, or should need to do, to be competitive.
Dungeon boss/trash and world boss physical defense and damage was already reduced massively in the past 2 or 3 updates and magic defense was raised also. I also made a lot of changes to skills that hit multiple targets or switched target randomly to help melee dps - but I have to draw the line somewhere because it will just become too easy.
I will not be reducing defenses any more because that positively affects things like HP Absorb which is already out of control as it is. If anything, boss defense in the future will rise to be similar to what players have and their HP will be reduced instead.
I mean almost everyone has self healing skill. All mail user have it, tankers have it, Wizard and Sorcerer have it, Vanquisher has it too, I guess. and Crusader with their bleed and stack with HP abs from weapon and skill. Soul Blader and Myrm might not be included here, but their HP abs is quite high. It turns Battlefield in to a "who runs faster" battle. They run away, heal, go back with full HP. Before, battlefield was better. I can't totally disagree with you on giving gunner self heal, but doing that so they can survive in battlefield or PvP in general isn't a solution. It's more like an improvisation.
But overall, I just want to point out healer is not that useful now even though you changed Roszack and fixed DMG absorb cap. My healer can barely find a place in PvE party.
Yes many classes have a self heal but they are usually on fairly long cooldown so it's not something you can rely on. A lot of content needs consistent healing that only a healer can provide not to mention cleansing all the debuffs flying around these days. Sure players can run away and heal in battlefields, either with heal skills or pots or whatever, but having a healer there would mean they wouldn't even need to waste time doing that in the first place so healer is hardly useless.
I do realise that some content doesn't necessarily require a healer but the majority of it is low level stuff (yes 75 is low level). I doubt you could do very much of the level 85 stuff without a healer unless your party was happy to spam expensive pots and do a lot of running and messing around. -
Accepted Answer
To add to this, we've done a few parties with mostly melee as DPS (75% Melee) and I assure you they do the same dmg as RDPS or more collectively ^^ Its rare for my raids to have an RDPS as the aggro taker since the update, (killed by ______ in announcement), in fact Snipers and Sharpshooters get this the most lol. XD I find it annoying that Gunners have best of both worlds in this though. Physical damage, loads of debuffs and ranged. Not much trade off in terms of damage and risk lol
Also I agree on the healers being much needed in end game content, meaning 85+. CI becomes difficult without a healer for most people, especially with Roszak stages. ToAI is ridiculous without a healer, GTI is still dependent on some heals but not as much as ToAI. And ofcourse bosses like LiskI, Glaceon and Namazu need support. Not just for heals, but for the debuffs. -
Accepted Answer
LJ wrote:
Mat wrote:
Simple calculation: tanker debuff: 10k, sniper: 10k, wizard/sorcerer: 8k, Manticore 3: 15k. 10 + 10 + 8 + 15 = 43k
You forgot debuffer o.o add 10k to it. It's 53k in total.
No, I didn't forget. I left it out on purpose. If I wanted to include it, I'd have added SB -10k DEF also. And we will have no physical def at all. But since you started it, let take it into account.
10k from SB, Assassin can debuff 10k constantly, and 15k every 1 minute. 43 + 10 +10 + 15 = 78k.
I doubt Sedy with his GM title and full VI cards can reach that high on his Myrm. Even if he could, saying he uses Golden Temple relics, his def would be 0 anyway. He might be able to double his DEF if he uses tanker, Champion in particular because they have DEF buff. Look a the tanker community. I don't think anyone have above 80k Phys DEF at the moment.
That's not all the DEF debuff. I said it above, some classes have % def debuff. But it doesn't matter at this point unless we have negative defense.
It doesn't end there. Reduce physical abs too. Negative DEF and almost 0 abs. Pretty cool. -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
I would guess that it's because WW trap is only 5s and there are plenty of ways to remove/avoid the stun, whereas SS trap is a 10s unavoidable sleep meaning you can be hammered by the SS for a whole 10s and do nothing about it.
You forgot WW have combo which hit up to 55k on Average., and they can finish combo-ing in 5s. Not as plenty as you think. If we neglect wearing cards, and Prophet's circle, it is only 2 things remain, Anti Stun buff and lizard. And they both have to be used before trap is placed. Even if you can use lizard when you're trapped, it won't remove stun.
Whereas SS, trap is sleep which Radon is immune, but even if you use radon and then SS trap you, you're still stuck. That's the problem. In both case, you need to pre-buff/trans, except SS pre-trans doesn't work.
They don't have any that can burst DMG to 55k on average. Their ATK Speed is lower than WW. I feel sorry for SS because of that. And I said above, their cooldown is high. They can debuff but nuke constantly is impossible compared to Sniper.
People are talking about you giving new skills for every class. Perhaps, you gave WW new skills, so they think you will give them new skills as well. I think you can take advantage of it to introduce some anti sleep skills.
Sedy wrote:
It is high yes. Anyway, I will be looking at stacking physical def debuffs.
Marked as solved because you will be looking at it, and hopefully changes will be on next update.
Sedy wrote:
the real reason for reducing Exposure was to weaken Sorcs.
I don't know who designed Sorc but that person must have been watching Hercules, Lord of the Rings, and 300 at the same time and they're big fans. Sorc have characteristic of a tanker, abs buff, long range and cast of wizard, and nuke DMG. They're still pretty strong after abs cap is fixed. Just saying, not discussing anything here.
Sedy wrote:
Casters already have the major advantage of being less likely to die since they can just stand back and cast their skills in most cases. Melee need to get up close and risk the likelihood that they will take massive damage, die, lose all their buffs, take up the healers time rezzing them and rebuffing etc. etc. and so the risk vs reward is very different.
Yes, that's the main and biggest problem. Range is problem. How far you stand away from bosses is problem.
WW have a skill called Misdirection which give long range DMG abs and magical DMG abs. Isn't it obvious that you can use it for future boss? And there are only 2 classes with pure Magical DMG., Wizard, and Sorcerer. If new dungeon come out with bosses that have long range reflect and magic reflect, melee's spot is guaranteed.
Sedy wrote:
If anything, they should be on par, if not better at dealing damage than casters.
Yes they're on par. Their problem is only few of them play well enough to survive boss. I once had to focus healing on a beaker liskH. Simplest task, beaking, and he had hard time surviving.
Sedy wrote:
I'm not even going to get into the gcasting thing.
Every class can gcast. It's easier on caster because they have casting skill while others have instant. Can be done using mount or charge but no one can do it. You once made global cd so caster couldn't gcast. It negatively affected server, so I don't want to get into it either.
*what about giving global cd on certain instant*
Just saying, I don't mean anything here.
I said it above, rumor saying you're making new skills. Someone said pushing is an issue. It's chance to change this pushing thing, too. Don't forget bleed. -
Accepted Answer
DO NOT RUINED CRUSADERS~ JUST CUS THEY HAVE BLEEDS THAT IS OP, those 2 skills are the only 2 skills that can actually help kill in PVP ok. DO U SEE CRUSADERS WITH IMMUNE STUN SKILL ON THERE SKILL TREE!?!?!?! OR OR OR OR DAMAGE ABSORBTION SKILL LIKE OTHER CLASSES OR OR OR OR..... A DAMN PROTECTION SHIELD WHICH BLOCKS +9999999999999999999 damage lol NO, I DONT THINK SO. DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS, I LOVE CRUSADERS OKAY. A CLASS WHICH I FOUND THAT SUITS ME IN BATTLE FIELDS OR GOING PK MAPS.
DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS, I REPEAT DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS!~~
THANK YOU for reading
-
Accepted Answer
Oi oi oi oi, stop blabbing about this ٩(๑`^´๑)۶
The more you talk about it, the more I see that you don't know the best way to bring out your highest damage. No classes are weak and no classes are op. The big problem is the way you use and play that class. Ss is NOT weak, they may a bit disadvantage in pve without a Sniper BUT they're FREAKING STRONG in pvp with their annoying trap skill. That skill can kill an entire pt if you're not carefull with it, and look, while Sniper can only take down one by one at a time.
You're complaining about all classes have healing skill? Then what? They're all need it!!! Just think that when u in bf, no healer in ur pt and ur losing hp. Beside using pots, you need a healing skill to heal urself if u want to survive. Or when ur doing dungeons or killing bosses, in case ur losing hp, ur pots are on cd and healer is busy healing tank, you need a healing skill to save yourself. More important, what the heck do u want? You want to remove a tank self's heal? Are u fucking wanna a whole pt to die when doing world bosses or dungeons??????
You're complaining about Sniper's manticore? It's only 7k5 nothing compare to the one SS have which is 15k. Well...maybe sniper has it on first job but what, you don't have to do insane dungeons, world bosses or pvp when you're a low lvl.
Sniper's bleed skill, -12% hp after 2s. What's wrong with it? Sniper CAN'T kill an entire pt with that skill like SS do with their trap skill.
Crus and Myr, they have bleed. Yet, it is scary in bf but what? As long as you don't let them near you, you can take them down without question. And yes, Myr are NOT weak. One bleed from them enough for half of ur hp to say bye bye to you, beside, bleed is like a skill that Myr and Crus must have. They'll become squishy and weak without it.
Sorc have been nerfed enough, stop complaining about nerfing them. They're good enough now, don't just say this and that about them. Leave sorc alone ◟( ‾᷅⚰‾᷄ )◞
You're saying that we're having 0 def on bf? Rethink about it, you're wrong. And you said that there're many debuff on bf? Pfft, you're lame. It's a normal thing, each class has their own debuff. When you're having many debuffs on you is because you got gang bang. And wht? IT's NORMAL in bf, that's teamwork. You need to help ur teammate to take down your enemy, so...why not try and debuff them to help your strong teammate to easily kill them? You're talking like you're only work alone without any teamwork, LAME!!!
You're saying prophet's circles are op? Don't be a noob!! Push them out of their circles. They may have an anti push circle, but that one has a long cd, after it disappear, just push the prophet out off their circles (if you have push skill) and gang bang them with your teammates. Plus, if you somehow fix the prophet's circles, it'll be a pain for you to do dungeons and world bosses.
This is what I've seen and experienced when playing in this sv for a long time. Looking at you're complain, it just pissed me off and it just made me think that you're a newbie and know nothing about classes/jobs in this Nosrub Iris Online. My suggestion for you is to play and learn more before complaining about something.
@Ray: oiii!!! I think I'm the only melee with a suckest aggro here .-.
And hey!!! This depends on how you use your skils and make combo. Use your skills wise and I'm sure you can bring out your best dmg :3 -
Accepted Answer
where is ur debuffs potion ? if u dont know how to play ur char , u should change another class...
let i tell u about SS class :
1st - SS has a sleep that u cant use debuffs potion ... it's op one.
2nd- SS is AOE class... and u should to learn how to use the skill of this class
3rd- if u can combo SS's SKill , u can kill tank with 130k hp.
p/s: if u dont donate , u cant complain or balance like ur thinking. -
Accepted Answer
First of all, to both of you, if you want to talk, please come up with some facts and data rather than say random stuff like that. And please talk in manner, Perubi, I’ve not cursed in my replies and posts yet, if you consider “hella” as a swearing word, I apologize.
Back to our topic.
Perubi wrote:
FREAKING STRONG in pvp with their annoying trap skill. That skill can kill an entire pt if you're not carefull with it, and look, while Sniper can only take down one by one at a time.
Please explain this a little more. However, I’m gonna try to explain it using my limited knowledge.
Side note:
Although skill says instant, there is an animation every time you use skill. Depends on skill and Attack Speed, it takes around 0.3s to 1s since the skill is used until skill is done and you can use another one. Add it to the time you need to react which must be 0.5 at least, total is 0.8 to 1.5s. That’s how casters gcast. That’s exactly why every class can gcast, but casters are the easiest due to their long cast time skill.
Long’s comment first:
Sniper have 4 AOE that cause DMG. Longest is 60s cd being Bullet Time. In case you forgot, Firecracker, one of the best if not the best *certainly the best*, has 16s cd
SharpShooter: they have 5 if we don’t count AoE debuff skills. Longest is 60s being Bomb Throw and Corrosive Charge which is a DoT skill. Death of Above is one of the best if not the best that has 4s stuns. Other AoE skills are just debuff.
How do you avoid 2s debuff, Long? 1.5 second to recognize it, at least 1 to use ailment.
Does Bomb Throw stun/sleep/immobilize you? No, it doesn’t.
Trap is 90s cd, Bomb Throw is 60. You certainly need to use it with trap otherwise, it would miss. Time for Bomb to explode is 5s, SS has low Attack Speed. Even wizard have higher ATK Speed than them which means their Throw Bomb’s cast time is 1s at least. Add it to 5s, it’s 6s in total.
Please don’t tell me you can't escape that Bomb in 6s if you’re not trapped. Furthermore, Death of Above has 4s stun. Time to react is 0.5, time to set trap is 1s. 2.5s left before stun ends.
To Perubi, trap is strong. Yes, it is. Does it do any DMG? No, it doesn’t.
Let me ask both of you this question. When you PvP, do you guys stick to each other? If you do, I have nothing to say. If you don’t. Would you run into a trap if you see it on the floor? If you would, I have nothing to say. If you would not, then how could SS trap kill the whole party?
Staying together is the worst and noobest mistake that any gamers could have made unless the game requires staying together to avoid certain ATK. If you play LoL, you never see any gank that every team join the fight while stacking together.
Trap is 90s cd. Aside of trap, what else can they do? Debuffing? Sure, does your enemy die if you debuff them? No.
Perubi wrote:
Just think that when u in bf, no healer in ur pt and ur losing hp. Beside using pots, you need a healing skill to heal urself if u want to survive.
Thanks for bringing this up. I’ve been waiting for it all along. I knew if I said it, it’d not be that convincing. That’s exactly my point. Purpose of banning percentage pot is to make people die. Bringing it into the game defeat that purpose. As I said, it’s an improvisation, not a solution.
Perubi wrote:
Or when ur doing dungeons or killing bosses, in case ur losing hp, ur pots are on cd and healer is busy healing tank, you need a healing skill to save yourself.
That’s your problem, not mine. Unless tankers suck and they can’t hold aggro, you may complain about it. Other than that, your duty is to DPS, not tanking or healing. If you die, it’s all due to noob-ness. If not noobness, it’s lag. One or the other. Example of noobness: DPS when Roszack at 40%, try to tank Death Spark, DPS without watching your back in CI and mobs kill you, etc
PS: Debuffer may complain bit here. But before you do, you only have to run in to debuff in 3 seconds every 10s. You have 7s to think of a way to heal back. Not to mention, you can use Nirenia to protect you in 5s when you go in. 15s trans cd, yes I know. But still.
Perubi wrote:
You want to remove a tank self's heal? Are u fucking wanna a whole pt to die when doing world bosses or dungeons??????
Exactly, if tank is dumb, good luck. Tank is designed to be able to tank everything. It’s not your problem. Every party needs healer. If you say we don’t, thanks for supporting my point of healer being useless. *Ray and Sedy kinda convinced me they’re not* BTW, I didn’t say anything about removing tanker’s healing skills.
Perubi wrote:
Sniper's bleed skill, -12% hp after 2s. What's wrong with it?
Read above, I've explained it.
Perubi wrote:
Sniper's bleed skill, -12% hp after 2s. What's wrong with it? Sniper CAN'T kill an entire pt with that skill like SS do with their trap skill.
Read above, I've explained it.
Perubi wrote:
Sorc have been nerfed enough, stop complaining about nerfing them. They're good enough now, don't just say this and that about them. Leave sorc alone ◟( ‾᷅⚰‾᷄ )◞
Don’t want to get into this because someone already said it. Please re-read my post, I said I was just saying. PS: Poke where it itches.
Perubi wrote:
You're saying that we're having 0 def on bf? Rethink about it, you're wrong. And you said that there're many debuff on bf? Pfft, you're lame. It's a normal thing, each class has their own debuff. When you're having many debuffs on you is because you got gang bang. And wht? IT's NORMAL in bf, that's teamwork. You need to help ur teammate to take down your enemy, so...why not try and debuff them to help your strong teammate to easily kill them? You're talking like you're only work alone without any teamwork, LAME!!!
Marked as trashtalk and not being able to understand what I said and the reason why it needs fixing. Sedy agrees with me, and so does Ray Darkwolf. No more proof is needed.
Perubi wrote:
You're saying prophet's circles are op? Don't be a noob!! Push them out of their circles. They may have an anti push circle, but that one has a long cd, after it disappear, just push the prophet out off their circles (if you have push skill) and gang bang them with your teammates. Plus, if you somehow fix the prophet's circles, it'll be a pain for you to do dungeons and world bosses.
Again, marked as trashtalk, clearly don’t understand what I said, and clearly didn't read recent Update where Prop isn’t as useful as they used to in PvE (mostly lisk). But in term of PvP, it’s no way near to the word “useless”. Play some Flag Matches and let me know.
Perubi wrote:
This is what I've seen and experienced when playing in this sv for a long time. Looking at you're complain, it just pissed me off and it just made me think that you're a newbie and know nothing about classes/jobs in this Nosrub Iris Online. My suggestion for you is to play and learn more before complaining about something.
Again, marked as trashtalk. I poked where it hurts.
Apple's era began after Microsoft, and they're doing way better than Microsoft now.
Albert Einstein was born after Isaac Newton, and he proved Newton is wrong. (some part, not everything)
And I don’t need to say much. I provided data and fact. Judging by that, I have more knowledge than you about No Scrubs, and skills/classes. -
Accepted Answer
To Long:
Longkute wrote:
1st - SS has a sleep that u cant use debuffs potion ... it's op one.
WW’s trap is removable with Ailment? Thanks Long for telling me this. I tried and it worked perfectly.
Err wait, I got trapped again.
Longkute wrote:
2nd- SS is AOE class... and u should to learn how to use the skill of this class.
If you know how to play that class, please explain it a little more. My knowledge is limited.
Longkute wrote:
3rd- if u can combo SS's SKill , u can kill tank with 130k hp.
Really? Then the tanker doesn’t know how to play. I’ve seen 2 good tankers in BF, one with white wings and one with blue wings. They chase SS all the time.
Longkute wrote:
p/s: if u dont donate , u cant complain or balance like ur thinking.
The fact that I’m being a farmer gives me more knowledge than being a donator. I have time to see everything. Just so you know, lots of farmers play better than donators. I can name some of them if you like. Leave your comment in the sections below -
Accepted Answer
AsianRider wrote:
DO NOT RUINED CRUSADERS~ JUST CUS THEY HAVE BLEEDS THAT IS OP, those 2 skills are the only 2 skills that can actually help kill in PVP ok. DO U SEE CRUSADERS WITH IMMUNE STUN SKILL ON THERE SKILL TREE!?!?!?! OR OR OR OR DAMAGE ABSORBTION SKILL LIKE OTHER CLASSES OR OR OR OR..... A DAMN PROTECTION SHIELD WHICH BLOCKS +9999999999999999999 damage lol NO, I DONT THINK SO. DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS, I LOVE CRUSADERS OKAY. A CLASS WHICH I FOUND THAT SUITS ME IN BATTLE FIELDS OR GOING PK MAPS.
DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS, I REPEAT DO NOT RUIN CRUSADERS!~~
THANK YOU for reading
That's exactly why I can't think of anyway to change it. It either ruins crusader or healers can't be solo-killed. Some classes can, example, Assassin, but then again, Sedy would have to re-build crusader completely which isn't worth it. -
Accepted Answer
Little update:
There are a couple duplicated paragraphs in my reply to Perubi. I've deleted them. Hopefully, that's all I need to fix. I typed on Google Document and pasted them here, so there are mistakes. I'm sorry for any inconveniences I might have made.
To add to Sniper vs SS reply to Perubi:
Death of Above is 36s cd and 4s stun, while Firecracker has 16s and 2s stun. Let's say DMG is the same even though I'm sure Firecracker hits hit as hard as Armageddon of Sorc's. You can use it twice in 32s and it still gives 4s stun. DMG is double because you can use it twice. Only drawback is you can't stun your enemy 4s straight like SS, but I'm sure you wouldn't want to trade double DMG and shorter cd for longer stun duration.
PS:
1. Armageddon is very strong, that's why it has 1 minute cd, and it needs flammability in order to use. That being said, Armageddon is reasonable skill. While Firecracker doesn't need any prerequisites conditions , low cd, and offers unavoidable bleed, I explained above, which Armageddon doesn't have. BTW, Armageddon has stun if you're wondering, 3s, relatively long, but it's relatively reasonable.
2. That paragraph was supposed to be posted with the whole reply, but the reply was too long, so I missed it.
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