I would like to post my own two cents worth, since like my girlfriend, I do own a moolah mount now and I do care if theres this "nerf" or update provided for it. I am, as you all know, a Sorcerer, ergo, most of my points will be from that aspect, but I also asked a friend who has a good Assassin for another perspective.


Concern 1: Moolah Mounts "cancel out" the need for Class Specific Speed Skills/Builds.

Upon casting a moolah mount, it is not as "instant" as it is claimed to be. There is still an animation which takes roughly .08 seconds where you cannot move while you cast. Compare this to any movement speed instant buff -- mine would be Wind Walk, which adds 600 MS for 3 seconds but i can run while casting it, its still a better alternative for quick chases and very fast escapes.

Comparison Data Below:
Moolah Mount = +400 approximately
vs
Wind Walk = +600 (3 secs) + Acceleration = +42 roughly (ROPE) = +642 in 3 seconds
Bestial Instincts = +245 roughly (15 secs) + Hastened Drive = +126 roughly (ROPE) = +371 in 15 seconds
Shadow Walk = +350 roughly (10 secs) + Hastened Drive = +126 roughly (ROPE) = +476 in 10 seconds


As you can see, despite a person at least for an Assassin or a Sorcerer, their classes can make due without a moolah mount. As for me, with Wind Walk and Acceleration on it only takes 3 seconds for me to run 2/3rds of the entire map of BF -- to put things into perspective of how far you can reach.

A moolah mount provides an extra edge ofcourse, meaning it gives a player another option when your chasing skills are on cooldown -- But if everyone has the mount, then it renders the field play equal. Why equal? ITS ALL 400. It doesnt play on your skills that add MS. No, it adds to your base MS of your character, which is always 700 approx. Agreed? Yes.

Its another edge in the game, like how trans cards are optional, yet having it and using them are always giving someone an advantage over ones who dont.


Concern 2: Moolah mounts provide certain classes the chance to Hit and Run

The concept of "Hit and Run" has always been available even in retail. Why wouldn't anyone? Every class is provided a killer combo they can use in order to kill somebody. May it be a mail user's trap to hold a person down, a vanq's duel skill, a templars pull + their respective ITDs and major damage skills. But the gist is-- you also have mounts, owl trans and move skills to help you as well.

True enough the comments say it "changes the course of PVP to hit and running". But Running has always been an asset, kiting is always a skill to have and killing as fast as you can without being caught by the opponent ---has always been the gist of PVP. What makes this different? You can chase someone who runs away. In fact, I said earlier, I chase someone using an owl trans + wind walk rather than a moolah mount. Faster and more effective to get that extra hit down to someone running. =) But it all depends on the situation.

Why use trans if you need trans to Stun someone running? Then you use a mount or a skill, yes? Mounts provide an endless supply of tactics in one's arsenal.

If I was someone who has killer combos and suddenly runs away. What are YOU doing? Waiting for them to run? Excuse me, if youre in a war, you chase. Or maybe you were waiting for them to actually run back and hit you again? I dont know.


Concern 3: Moolah mounts became a necessary thing to have in PvP. Newbies cant keep up!

Like how wings became necessary? Like how Stat IV builds became necessary? Ofcourse.

Any newbie would feel threatened by these developments because most of the higher level BFs, 74+ and 85 are filled with moolah geared people. That is always the case when you have donating items involved. People who donate will get the better stats, the better alternatives and the advantages. But what is stopping any other new player? As someone posted, earning these gears to be one of the crowd is part of the game. I loved when I got my costume. I loved when I earned for my character cards -- etc.

Is attaining moolah expensive? Please dont tell me you all expect someone to get 50 moolah magically without spending anything. If you do not want to farm, then get a credit card and pay for it. If you can give hours of your time -- then farm for it.

Let us put it into perspective. To farm 100 million, it takes a few dungeon runs that you can run once in a day as an average lvl 75 character who is equipped with CQ and Lisk gears. Which are very cheap and easily attainable now. And yes. to everybody.

CH = Chance of All Stat, 120+ MTS, X amount of V cards (5mil), X amount of Fairy Powder/Piece (100k/200k), Elemental Spirit Pieces x Uni Drop x 4 ( 500k - 1mil EACH if youre lucky )
DH = 100 STS, X amount of Fairy Powder/Piece (100k/200k) Marble (1 Mil)
WGH = 120+ MTTS, X amount of Fairy Powder/Piece (100k/200k) Marble (1 Mil)

Running all these dungeons at least once a day = 50million Profit. It resets twice a day. ergo hah! you earned 1 moolah worth! hogawd.
Not even counting Lisk/TOA/TLC or daily farming mats.


Concern 4: Why say this now? Why not 1 and a half years ago? (edited for Darcel's benefit)

I will attack people on this one, so I shall say sorry in advance. Date back years ago, even before I have been playing NS, I know moolah has not been very common. In fact, when I started playing, only a few people had wings let along costumes and moolah mounts. This is where the concept of "abuse" can be implemented. Why so? Because its not common. Donators had a very very LARGE gap between them and non donators. Ergo, OP.

Now that the playing field is even, its suddenly a problem?

I see the point wherein yes moolah gears has become a necessity, but as all games progress, it will always happen. And it helps the server as well. That IS the point. It is not "abuse". It is strategy. It is tactics, and with every strategy, there is a counter. Mounting up is a problem? Why not stun them. why not dismount them. Why not pull them? Duel? There are countless ways of disrupting a person. Why don't you learn the skills you were given in 3rd jobs, and see how amazing they are.


Concern 5: Cooldown will help the abuse of mounting.

I like the creative suggestion, I really do. It just gives a delay of using the mount again. Okay. But to be perfectly honest --> Its a rather useless update if it is implemented. Think of it this way. If a person will wait for their combos to end cool down, then why not just wait a few more seconds longer for your mount too? It would not help much, it would just make people run more.


Concern 6: Moolah mounting is not useful in PvE.

Seriously? You must be joking, because I have always used mounts in PvE and in fact I use them more on dungeons and Boss Hunts than BF or wars.

It just makes things faster to do. in fact Im pissed about this delay cooldown thing because it makes my PvE harder. I need to owl everytime I run through mobs in CH? CI? WGH? DH? Gosh.

You've got to be kidding me.


Conclusion:

I don't agree with this suggestion. =)

My thanks to KaizerBlade/DukeSenel for help regarding Dismount skills:

Number 1: Yes, my bad, you stated "need". Though my argument is still valid, if you affect the PvP aspect, it also goes with changing the PvE part as well, which is why I was rebutting that argument. As I said, hardcore farmers and insane dungeon goers like myself use this mount for mobbing and to make this faster, after all, Sedy put a 15min Insane Dungeon runs for a reason.

Number 2:Like you said, everybody adapts to the arsenal they have. That defines what strategy and tactics are. Even when Destruction was taken off, was it just left at that? Not really. Sedy gave them a new set of skills and a new gameplay which also compensated the change. Plus, its a different argument. --- Class Skills are open to everybody even to those who play casually, just level and youre done, you have these skills and its up to you to use them. you are GUARANTEED that you have this. If its changed, okay deal with it, if not, okay deal with it. Agreed?

Moolah "anything" --- is a different aspect, a player spends extra time. Extra time unneeded to actually just level up to farming/earning or spend real money to get this. Which is why it is a hard thing to suggest on. People spent knowing that this thing is instant, no cd, no baloney. Where is the contract for that, that when I spend 50$ -- somewhere along the line, yes. whatever you bought will change, sorry.

Number 3: Dismounting is NOT obsolete. Lets go back to basics. A Templar is given 2 dismounting skills. 1 for a target user, and another which is an AoE effect. Both these skills have 2 second stuns to the user when it hits. If the debuff does not hit, the user is still pulled to the Templar. Which gives enough time to actually cast another crowd Control, usually Immobilize.

If this debuff hits, the debuff in itself contains the "No Mounting Allowed." You cannot. I repeat. CANNOT. MOUNT UP ANYMORE in that 2 sec stun. If you do, it will miss. Yes this was Tried and Tested. =)

2 seconds is enough for any Templar to hit with another skill in their "combo" to keep them in place. I can be locked for more than 5 seconds if everything hits, which usually they do. Now tell me, how is Dismount rendered obsolete? It was designed with Instant mounts in mind -- I'll leave it at that.


Thank you, I do my best to show a more rounded argument based on current status quo. As for the PVP aspect being hectic, don't you think that it already is? The new skills have combos, its really hectic even without mounting up. But think of it this way. What about the Melees?

Templars, Crusaders, Vanqs, Soul Bladers, Champions (if I missed any, sorry)builds are usually Attack Speed. With any tamper on the mounting, it would affect them greatly. Why cripple them? Personally as a Sorc, I already said, rain or shine of this argument, I don't find it to be much of a big deal for myself. I can compensate with Owls, I compensate with my own skills. But most melee, do they have that alternative? Maybe not.

I don't get what you mean by Skill Ceiling, never heard of this term before XD Sorry

Poor Papa XD

[Well played, Alpha.]
So dismount actually works an intended? Well I'll be damned, that's what you get for continually not logging on. Sorry - I was testing it upon release, when it worked not (or was bugged somehow).
About melees - well, as you've correctly stated, everyone in PvP has these mounts, any changes to them will most likely not make a difference for melees, since they chase the same mounts they use. Heh. Myself, as a melee, I was using slowdowns, speed potions/trans, and (occasionally) Charge to secure the chase and start the combo; with the update and transition to Templar, frequently used pull as well. I did not use mounts, if only at the beginning (I do not possess a moolah mount, yet didn't feel crippled)
Oh, and by "hectic" I mean more like "unnecessarily sped up" rather than "chaotic" (that persists however).

P.S. Skill ceiling is the measurement of a player's mastery in using what he's given - his character's skillset, mainly. I doubt doubled MSpd (thus hectic combat) would contribute to this, if only to raise said reaction time.

Oh I wouldnt know about that. Melees are given a better burst combo than any other class. With Anti stun + Duel + ignore abs/ignore def skills that you can bust out, its a good kill. You're right, if the playing field is even with mounts then it "doesnt have an effect." But. Im not saying both are running at the same time now, am I? Thats why there is Hit and Run =D I myself dont even do that, but I see the point in a melee's perspective. Its how most of them are designed. Burst Dmg -> Kill one -> Get the hella out XD

What an odd term... Skill Ceiling. Alright thank you~

I actually like the whole movespeed thing and hecticness. It makes pvp intense, adrenaline rushing. Especially when any second you know that if you miss a pot, or miss a trans...youre gonna die very fast! I reiterate that every class (except healers) can kill any other with their skills. Some harder than others, like Vanq vs WW? Evasion much. But yeah, still able. Maybe its just me cause Im masochistic that way and I love being on the edge lol

My vote: Uh... no.

I don't get it D:

might as well use owl trans instead if it got that much cooldown

LOL if u put CD in that mount, im doubt people will buy it. I dont hav moolah mount, and i dont like it either, coz they can run so easy. But seriously that makes this games fun, if u want kill ur target, so go farm ur moolah and buy that moolah mount one.
^^ hav fun

Yomi vote Kelly = no =D

Just remove those mounts then, because nobody will buy it if got cd. ~

Add cd to green wings also because healers are too fast for me and they can escape

Much as everyone's bitter about this, I agree with the suggestion. [I can also prove Allen did abuse the mount, heh.]
I myself remember how annoying was it that everyone just ran away from me in PvP when they were losing (being a pre-update Knight with nothing to prevent them from doing so) and vice-versa, chasing me effortlessly when winning, but that's not really the point...point is, this directly interferes with - and destroys - the PvP metagame.
Why ever use classes' escape mechanisms when you can x2 speed and effortlessly retreat? Why chasing retreating people knowing you cannot stop them from doing this, not even with dismount abilities? If we're talking about class abilities - for Zerks, why saving up cooldowns to chase/retreat? etc, etc.
Contrary to cie wie's opinion - it's not about who hasn't/has the mount, it's about the mount itself destroys the meta, eliminating the need to care about your M.Spd (which is a major stat PvP-wise). It doesn't get better when everyone has these mounts - the people are still NOT equal in chances, as some classes (Zerks, Sorcs, Snipers) benefit from M.Spd much greater than others. There is still an imbalance.


inb4 comments: anything not directed at the topic itself [e.g. "if you don't have it, stfu"] will be ignored, as will be "just no"-esque comments.
Props to Allen.

I agree. A mount with 0 casting its like speed potion and even those have a cooldown.

Mounts casting works as a channeling skill that can be interrupted when hit with critical damage. If there's no cast you can't prevent a person of poping the mount and retreat. Having a small cooldown can at least make it more balanced and make people use pvp strategy instead of spam mount to run away or chase.

yeah you have a point to all this but what if you are looking at this the wrong way, moolah mounts are OP but owl tran + mount then stun and bam they cant run but if you want to really pin point errors in running of PVP why not bitch about the fact of players using absorb pots then log out jutsu to save their CP, if you want to PVP you just have to be smart with how you use the accesories you have at you're demand, most classe now have speed debuff attacks of 30% or move even with moolah mount active it still effects you, and another thing of stuns, if you are quick and know they are going to run stun them so they cant simple also people when bored like to muck around with the instant cast to entertain themselves. anyway thats my imput on this

*speed debuff of 30% or more* fail typo lol

If there's CD wouldn't you just mount away and run for a good 10-15 seconds then spam then mount again? I can envision people running in circles(sorta). :P

I had that moolah mount 2 years ago.

how come you come up with this idea just now?

My honest opinion: Moolah mounts were implemented to give players some advantage, and they have in very big ways, and they're FOR THE MOST PART fine.

If they were to be nerfed hard, people wouldn't buy them anymore, as stated by many previously. Cooldowns will piss people off and is not a viable option, enough said.

In my opinion, the only thing that is truly ridiculous about moolah mounts is: the instant cast. Let me tell you why it's ridiculous. Instant cast means players are able to cast this mount at any time, under any circumstance. What this means is... they are able to cast this mount WHILE being stunned or slept. They press one button, then all they have to do is hold a direction key until they're off stun or sleep, which gives players with moolah mounts an insane (more than reasonable) amount of advantage in pvp.

TL;DR? You can cast moolah mount while stunned/slept, very imba.

How can this problem be solved? Just make it a 0.01 second cast. It's close enough to zero that it shouldn't even matter, plus this will mean people can't cast it while being stunned or slept. They will have to wait for the stun or sleep to be over to cast this mount. Just this simple added step will make pvp so much more "balanced".

Of course, true balance can never be achieved, since players who spend more money are the game are (rightfully?) entitled to more benefits. However, when the lack of balanced gameplay gets this out of hand, I feel that something like this is necessary.

With this suggestion, moolah mounts are pretty much the same as before. Players owning moolah mounts will only have to wait till stuns/sleeps are over to cast the mount, and can no longer just press the damn button while stunned and hold a directional key. Nothing else changes.

Also, being stunned or slept is supposed to mean you can't do ANYTHING, and I don't see why moolah mounts should be an exception, especially when it's so very easy to run away with it.

Just my opinion.

What I'm getting is that he doesn't like the fact that not only are the mounts instant, but that there is no cool down in the time they can be used. I could be wrong, but again, that's what I get from it.

Kelly is correct. But don't get me wrong, I love how instant mounts are right now, everyone does. I just think that is making things too one-dimensional in-game. No one plays safe, everyone's reckless, and still gets away with it. I just think it would be better for the pvp meta-game if mounts were given a minor blow. A very minor blow.

Somehow I don't see how that is related to anything regarding this topic. But okay.

I didn't read most of the posts here but i like the moolah mount of how it is now. And if you don't like it, then don't use it. And if you think the moolah mount gives a player an "OP status" or w/e HAHAHAHAH, then QQ more. *crybabies*

If moolah mounts will have a CD, i would like to have a refund. kthx.

so basically you don't want your enemy to easily escape from you during pvp?

I own an instant mount~ hence, of course I'm interested in this topic.

From what I understand from the first post: Instant mount is OP and should be considered as a candidate for change because it
- allows hit-mount-hit-mount combos --> thereby allowing people to go attack speed instead of movement speed build
- allows you to chase down people with no worries
- allows you to escape with no worries
- makes class-based escape mechanisms eg tele become second-class skills

observation: moolah mount is pretty common nowadays in 85 bf
- if you go attack speed, you still need to catch up to people who are moolah mount PLUS movement speed build, so this isn't really relevant. Plus, while they are doing their hit-mount combo, you can run too! or hit them. nothing stopping you from doing the same.
- if you say it allows you to chase ppl, yet allows you to escape, these are contradictory in nature. if both players have the mount, it doesn't really serve as an advantage
- tele has a long cd. so of course you can't use it all the time. but it can and does serve as a headstart so to speak. so these are best used in conjunction with your mount.
observation2: yes not everyone has a mount
- part of every game is gearing up. since here it's easy to +10 your gear, your mount is one of the 'items' you need to farm for to do well in pvp.
- what's wrong with that? anyone can get it after some time of farming for moolah. how do you expect to do as well as people who have been working on their character for much longer?

question: why is this OP when everyone can use it? it is available to every single player who puts in the effort of farming the moolah. also, why raise this now? What's changed?

Add cd to Wadi and Wabish too, cos they too OP for me

lol, this is a stupid request....i didn't bother to read all the replies as i'm limited on time...since i'm doing this at work. But I have to say this , INSTANT MOUNT is there for a reason and we all paid it for said reason....to be INSTANT and not have a CD. I mean if you wanted a CD then buy the 1K tear one.

Just because the game change and you can't kill your MARK in pvp...don't try to go change what all has been use to in the past. Plus, you really the one to talk Allen since you are the one who loved using INSTANT and run after people. I think it's all about what is in your favor. If it's not in your favor then you find all means to get people to change their mind about it...listing pros and cons about it. Leave it alone. We like it as it is. And take some advice then "If you can't handle PVP then don't go there"


**Don't get me wrong Allen, you have great views and ideas but this one is plainly stated as not one of them**

-Laters!

pfft emo poy what are u sayin ? u want CD for ur babe ?

I agree with you Allen that something needs to be done to balance out the moolah mount. At the moment it is allowing players to utilise a poor pvp play-style of 'use skills, mount and run away until skills are off cool-down then repeat'. It is a reckless and damaging style of play which consistently rewards players for otherwise bad judgement and/or pvp ability. Why have cool-downs if you are just going to dive and then retreat at 2x your normal movement speed then come back in when your cc and itd's are back up and ready to be used again? There is no punishment WHATSOEVER for that sort of reckless playing when using the moolah mount.

I do not agree that such a long cool-down of 10-15 seconds should be imposed though nor a 0.5 second cast time, the mount is an 'instant mount' and therefore should keep that status. A cool-down however is a very good idea, anything longer than 8 seconds is too much though, at that number it allows the mount to be used outside of the cool-down duration of most common CC skills (so the mount user doesn't get cc'd permanently but is still vulnerable) whilst removing the 'spammability' factor and encouraging it's users to adopt a proper pvp strategy other than the aforementioned and redundant cycle of 'spam-mount-spam-mount'.

I am quite puzzled though at some of the reactions to this suggestion, I didn't see any Zerks/Glads/Mercs demanding refunds when CT and Destruction got nerfed/changed despite people spending $$$ on their class and building up their character(s) when those classes were built (and in some cases chosen) on the ITD buff that made lot's of players cry pre-update, in fact some people spent MORE money and opted for a class change or simply adapted and carried on. Although the comparison is perhaps a little stretched, it is still a viable comparison to make.

As I have already mentioned, certain classes (Zerks, Sorcs, Snipers, Windwalkers) benefit more from having spectacular MSpd than other classes (Templar, Myrmidon, Marksman).
Too tired to launch into a detailed rant: just giving you another point to look from

yes, they do benefit to a certain point but it does not make it too OP. and I do agree with Fae, because instant mounts has become part of lvl 85 player's strategy in PVP or BF. somehow, it changed the "way" of PvP, but not greatly since too many lvl 85 players has the mount already. so for those who doesn't have the mount, they should think a way to fight back. but if lesser players (of a certain level range) has the mount, then the use of the instant mount can be considered OP.

IF WE FOCUS ON THE EFFECTS OF THE MOUNT ALONE IN PVP, yes it is not fair. but in general we cannot view it that way, can we? because in PvP, we maximize the use of the resources available, plan a strategy, and fight. if compared to math, instant mounts, VI cards, wings, and costumes, or moolah items in general, are independent variables. and PvP is the dependent variable. and we can consider CQ armors, tears costumes, as constants.

I am sick and tired of the rude comments from everyone (but i cannot do anything about it. lol), and Allen, yes this is a suggestion thread, but do not expect that people will just agree with you, they are just stating their opinion also. if you do not want anyone to comment about your suggestion in a bad way, then send a message directly to sedy. because posting this thread just means that you also want feedback from other players, am I right? how you answer back to their comments is rude also.

and for others, try to be nice. HAHAHAHAHAHA

*goes back to hiding*

Obviously it is a suggestion thread and as everything in life you can't please everybody. The fact that we all are able to have our own opinion its what makes us individuals. But just because people don't agree with the thread starter doesn't mean they have to be rude and behave like a spoiled child throwing a dummy out of the pram.

I'm sure Allen's idea was to read opinions and counter-suggestions. If you don't agree with him that's fair enough, state your opinion and defend your point of view. That's what grown people do. Coming here trying to troll with silly comments and failing blackmail posts won't take them anywhere and just show how childish and unable to build a line of thought some people can be.

One last point, Sedy is very good at giving us all what we want, everytime he changes something he always compensates (see the way we can change titles) so he has the last word and IF something changes I'm sure he won't make people lose money! So no point getting all crossed spitting out refund requests when Sedy didn't even gave his input.

Finally someone who understands my point! I really think that this would be a good thing to start with, if only everyone would be considerate and willing enough to allow balancing in-game instead of just settling and compromising for what is obviously a broken aspect of the Pvp meta in this server. But as always, I seriously doubt it.



Much appreciated reply, Fist. (:

You should consider being a stand up comedian. You are a very funny guy.

I had that moolah mount 2 years ago. Yes it was indeed fun, I already admit that I enjoyed abusing that mount. But that's the point, it is something that we can all abuse and is changing the pace of the Pvp from strategic skill usage with teams to "spam-mount-spam-mount-spam". Now It may seem like I'm being a selfish prick here saying that I've enjoyed it, and we shouldn't let the new guys feel the power. I'm merely pointing out that it is something that is broken. Wether you agree with my suggestion or not, it doesn't really matter much to me.

No, not basically just that. If I wanted that I would've asked for more stuns and slows.

The topic at hand is specifically about the instant mount's effects on Pvp, not Pvp in general. Thanks for your input, though.

Yes, the suggestion is sort of a minor drawback for having the ability to instantly double your move speed. Come to think of it, I think 10-15s cooldown would hardly make any difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Playing this games is not always say feel the power, u need use strategic, if ppl keep running from u, try use mons transform or others ways so u can stop him from do that. If u say like that then how about ppl use log out from battle?? same right? its not always about power. Need good pilot so u can win from battle

@ciewie: The point is, there's _no way_ to counter THAT high Movement Speed - only with hard crowdcontrol, which is scarce and does have a miss chance.

oh, I get it. *hides*

agree !