4 days ago
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I would like to invite players to comment on the situation with the Mail wearing melee classes, the Sin and Wind Walker.
I have had a lot of discussions with people playing these classes, and those that play against them, and both sides paint a very different picture of them either being underpowered and difficult to build and play, or being completely overpowered due to not being able to hit them. The Sin/WW players say they can't get enough Evasion and take way too much damage when they get hit and everyone else says they need to sacrifice a lot in order to gain enough +Hit to successfully hit them.
The thing that comes to my mind instantly when people complain about these classes and being unable to hit them, is that yes YOU can't hit them, but I bet somebody else can. Meaning, yeh they might have enough Physical or Magic Evasion to evade your attacks, but I doubt they have enough to counter both types so if somebody else also attacked them (god forbid, this is an MMO you know), they would drop like a fly. It's not so easy to get both Magic and Physical Evasion in high enough amounts - maybe possible to evade average geared players of both types, but not as easy as some of you like to suggest.
Anyway, I keep promising to do a rework on these classes but I am really unsure of the best way to do it, so I would like to get some ideas and opinions from you guys.
The current situation is always going to be swings and roundabouts - back and fourth between being able to get more +Hit or more +Evasion as new items/skills are introduced or changed, and although I have spent a lot of time rebalancing items in the past to ensure the availability of both stats - it's never going to be perfect and some people will still sacrifice everything else to get more Evasion and become annoying to you, even if their damage and other defensive stats suffer - and the complaints from other classes will just continue. Just adding/removing some Evasion or Hit to/from the game is not going to fix things.
Some random thoughts of mine:
These classes are considered by the majority to be Debuffer support classes. They are taken to PvE content for their debuffs, not their damage. This in itself is an issue as it allows these classes to focus on on far fewer stats. Evasion and enough Hit to be effective in PvE.
Not only can these classes obtain super high Evasion (even if it is Physical or Magic, but not really both), but they also have shields, absorbs or even a reflect - so the times you do actually hit them are countered. Now I don't mind this as such. A well timed use of a defensive skill is exactly how it should be - but coupled with the fact you can hardly hit them... not so much.
This thought leads me on to how "I" feel these classes could/should be:
I feel that Evasion should not really be a stat found on items or long-running buffs/tarots etc. I feel it should only be found on temporary skill buffs and passive skills. These classes already have a couple of skills that increase Evasion temporarily. Evasion could be removed from items and these skills reworked to make them more flexible and to grant more Evasion. They would be like the oh-shit button and grant a large amount of Evasion for a short period of time. Incoming AoE from a boss? oh-shit button. Sorc glitch incoming? oh-shit button etc. etc. But obviously due to cooldowns the player would need to actually think about when to use these skills, just as they do now with shields, or risk being without them when needed - not just run around unhittable permanently as it is now.
What would replace all the Evasion on items?
Anything. More damage, Crit, Hit, etc. but I would lean more towards replacing it with other defensive stats like HP, Defense, and Protection. This is another issue with the classes as it stands - they take a large amount of damage when their Evasion fails due to a lack of other defensive stats and also their defense from Mail items being split 50/50 between Physical/Magic instead of 60/40 from Plate or 40/60 from Cloth.
So where would the Evasion actually come from, and how much?
Maybe upto 25% of permanent Evasion could be obtained from passives, like Enhanced Mail Armor passive skill we already have.
Skills like Beastial Instincts, Wind Protection, Shadow Protection that currently already grant Evasion could be reworked into the oh-shit buttons, granting anywhere upto 75% Evasion for a brief period of time.
All Evasion or Physical or Magic?
I think the 25% from passives should be All Evasion but there should be a Physical Evasion oh-shit skill and a Magic Evasion oh-shit skill, so the player must choose the right one, at the right time, to be effective, and still be in danger if they are being attacked by a Magic and a Physical class at the same time. We are not rambo. If you have multiple enemies attacking you, and you are on your own (not wise in an MMO) you should probably have a hard time of it.
100% in total? But that's nothing really, people have like over 9000 hit these days!
I would rework how Hit and Evasion actually work. Currently you can go above 100% of both as they directly counter each other. If I were to do this, I would cap Evasion and Hit at 100%, remove Evasion and Hit from being granted from the base stats (which is actually the main reason why you can get so much Eva/Hit these days anyway), and whatever else necessary like reducing Hit on items and buffs - haven't thought too hard on exactly how right now. I would also reduce PvE monster Evasion so players would not need so much Hit anyway. Other classes would only need 25% Hit in PvP to guarantee to hit the Mail classes when they are not using their oh-shit buttons.
Obviously these changes would have lots of ramifications for the game and a lot would need to be adjusted in PvE, but that is not too much of a problem. Most monsters in the game have fairly low Evasion and Hit already - it's only recently that I started using them in large amounts on bosses and mechanics such as Okeanos.
Anyway, this is just my view on how these classes *could* be changed. Less focus on Evasion would mean the class could evolve into more than just the debuffer in PvE and annoying in PvP. They would effectively become DPS type classes. It might seem over thought and complicated - maybe I am missing something and there is a far easier solution, but just adjusting Eva/Hit on items/skills/buffs/consumables is not the solution - it might be a temporary one, but all it will end up being is a bandage for a while.
If you have the solution, or some ideas, or know of another game that we could learn from, let me know!
I have had a lot of discussions with people playing these classes, and those that play against them, and both sides paint a very different picture of them either being underpowered and difficult to build and play, or being completely overpowered due to not being able to hit them. The Sin/WW players say they can't get enough Evasion and take way too much damage when they get hit and everyone else says they need to sacrifice a lot in order to gain enough +Hit to successfully hit them.
The thing that comes to my mind instantly when people complain about these classes and being unable to hit them, is that yes YOU can't hit them, but I bet somebody else can. Meaning, yeh they might have enough Physical or Magic Evasion to evade your attacks, but I doubt they have enough to counter both types so if somebody else also attacked them (god forbid, this is an MMO you know), they would drop like a fly. It's not so easy to get both Magic and Physical Evasion in high enough amounts - maybe possible to evade average geared players of both types, but not as easy as some of you like to suggest.
Anyway, I keep promising to do a rework on these classes but I am really unsure of the best way to do it, so I would like to get some ideas and opinions from you guys.
The current situation is always going to be swings and roundabouts - back and fourth between being able to get more +Hit or more +Evasion as new items/skills are introduced or changed, and although I have spent a lot of time rebalancing items in the past to ensure the availability of both stats - it's never going to be perfect and some people will still sacrifice everything else to get more Evasion and become annoying to you, even if their damage and other defensive stats suffer - and the complaints from other classes will just continue. Just adding/removing some Evasion or Hit to/from the game is not going to fix things.
Some random thoughts of mine:
These classes are considered by the majority to be Debuffer support classes. They are taken to PvE content for their debuffs, not their damage. This in itself is an issue as it allows these classes to focus on on far fewer stats. Evasion and enough Hit to be effective in PvE.
Not only can these classes obtain super high Evasion (even if it is Physical or Magic, but not really both), but they also have shields, absorbs or even a reflect - so the times you do actually hit them are countered. Now I don't mind this as such. A well timed use of a defensive skill is exactly how it should be - but coupled with the fact you can hardly hit them... not so much.
This thought leads me on to how "I" feel these classes could/should be:
I feel that Evasion should not really be a stat found on items or long-running buffs/tarots etc. I feel it should only be found on temporary skill buffs and passive skills. These classes already have a couple of skills that increase Evasion temporarily. Evasion could be removed from items and these skills reworked to make them more flexible and to grant more Evasion. They would be like the oh-shit button and grant a large amount of Evasion for a short period of time. Incoming AoE from a boss? oh-shit button. Sorc glitch incoming? oh-shit button etc. etc. But obviously due to cooldowns the player would need to actually think about when to use these skills, just as they do now with shields, or risk being without them when needed - not just run around unhittable permanently as it is now.
What would replace all the Evasion on items?
Anything. More damage, Crit, Hit, etc. but I would lean more towards replacing it with other defensive stats like HP, Defense, and Protection. This is another issue with the classes as it stands - they take a large amount of damage when their Evasion fails due to a lack of other defensive stats and also their defense from Mail items being split 50/50 between Physical/Magic instead of 60/40 from Plate or 40/60 from Cloth.
So where would the Evasion actually come from, and how much?
Maybe upto 25% of permanent Evasion could be obtained from passives, like Enhanced Mail Armor passive skill we already have.
Skills like Beastial Instincts, Wind Protection, Shadow Protection that currently already grant Evasion could be reworked into the oh-shit buttons, granting anywhere upto 75% Evasion for a brief period of time.
All Evasion or Physical or Magic?
I think the 25% from passives should be All Evasion but there should be a Physical Evasion oh-shit skill and a Magic Evasion oh-shit skill, so the player must choose the right one, at the right time, to be effective, and still be in danger if they are being attacked by a Magic and a Physical class at the same time. We are not rambo. If you have multiple enemies attacking you, and you are on your own (not wise in an MMO) you should probably have a hard time of it.
100% in total? But that's nothing really, people have like over 9000 hit these days!
I would rework how Hit and Evasion actually work. Currently you can go above 100% of both as they directly counter each other. If I were to do this, I would cap Evasion and Hit at 100%, remove Evasion and Hit from being granted from the base stats (which is actually the main reason why you can get so much Eva/Hit these days anyway), and whatever else necessary like reducing Hit on items and buffs - haven't thought too hard on exactly how right now. I would also reduce PvE monster Evasion so players would not need so much Hit anyway. Other classes would only need 25% Hit in PvP to guarantee to hit the Mail classes when they are not using their oh-shit buttons.
Obviously these changes would have lots of ramifications for the game and a lot would need to be adjusted in PvE, but that is not too much of a problem. Most monsters in the game have fairly low Evasion and Hit already - it's only recently that I started using them in large amounts on bosses and mechanics such as Okeanos.
Anyway, this is just my view on how these classes *could* be changed. Less focus on Evasion would mean the class could evolve into more than just the debuffer in PvE and annoying in PvP. They would effectively become DPS type classes. It might seem over thought and complicated - maybe I am missing something and there is a far easier solution, but just adjusting Eva/Hit on items/skills/buffs/consumables is not the solution - it might be a temporary one, but all it will end up being is a bandage for a while.
If you have the solution, or some ideas, or know of another game that we could learn from, let me know!
Responses (26)
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Accepted Answer
Please stop sending me PMs/DMs about this subject. I am posting here to get thoughts and ideas from you all. I can't keep having the same discussion over and over again one to one, it's tiring. I'm not hating on Sin/WW or on any other class. I am looking for ideas to improve them and make them more sought after and fun to play, and less of a one-trick pony, relying purely on Evasion and doing mediocre damage. I don't think any class should be so reliant on a single stat - it's not fun. Maybe some of you like it that way, I don't know, tell me, but I believe they could be improved upon - and I believe a lot of you feel the same if the amount of discussions I've had in the past are anything to go by.
This is just a discussion though. None of what I say above is planned to happen as of now - it's just ideas and thoughts I have on them personally. -
Accepted Answer
lol, i just laughed when i see this discussion. over 600 phy eva n nearly 600 magic eva still gets hit and drop dead like a fly, so what lol. u go eva build u die instantly so wat lol. u cant be invisible and be tanky like a tank when u get hit with eva build or stat build on a sin/ww. u build wat u build on your character. stop QQing and just play lol. My Sin is wearing Won set with Recovery cards V on the set and i still dodge them hits. LOL~ im amazed tbh with no eva card build or stat cards
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Sedy its on u to decide to remove eva or not, i dont really care much cus im already amazed of my build ^_^ -
Accepted Answer
I think that they should stay as they are and not change anything from them because even with 600 eva doesn't mean they will not die. Everyone nowadays with lots of Hit chance can go up to 550+ 600+ since most of Items have Hit Chance and it still kills the Eva Builds. Also, other point where if you removed Eva from Sin/ww it's ganna be really bad for Sin/ww because that what the special thing about playing Mail Classes. Every class has it own special thing. Last thing to point out that if did remove all Eva on those 2 classes. What happens to people who donate or farmed like hell to collect Moolah tokens and build up Sin/ww with lots of time and work spend on it. I do say people should stop QQ-ing about Eva Classes and Build their Character better and learn how to play better use your skills be creative.. -
Accepted Answer
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Accepted Answer
The good thing about playing an RPG is that there are different classes that make them UNIQUE,
How ugly would it be if I nerf a class just because some people don't know how to kill eva users?
Did the person put a lot of sacrifice to strengthen their doll ---- and because of others ppl cant kill ww or sin wanna nerf their class? .......
and by a person who asks to harm the eva class? Just because you don't know how to kill him?
worry about organizing your class and learning to use your skills,
Is this how mmo games work? I mean, as if the people who play the game don't like how the other class works, do they talk to the game master to change it? -
Accepted Answer
In my opinion, I think Evasion shouldn't be exist, there are too many secondary stats already. Maybe change Evasion to Protection? Assasin & Wind Walker both main 'Agility' stats, which means they should have high 'Protection'. There is no skill need to be change, both of this class got shield, reflect can protect themselves.
Comparing to Vanquisher/Crusader/Champion/Templar, these 4 classes should be tanky with 'High HP' & 'High Defense' but hard to reach 'High Protection'. Assasin & Wind Walker should be easier to get higher protection, with some PvP Accessories should make their hp lot higher. Hit chance should ONLY work in PvE, which make dungeons are more challenging than before, both of this 2 classes are debuffer support class yes, evasion is just useless in PvE, bosses always have enough hit chance to 1 SHOT them. I believe this make the game lot more clear for newbie, like what stat they should be focus first, if they want to join dungeons or world bosses for better gears
Imagine a high end build Assasin duel with high end build Wizard - high damage but lacking of hit chance, in the end the Wizard still win the game because of skill spamming/glitching. 35% minimum hit chance cap is like playing with RNG GOD, everything is just 'random', why not just make it based on experience and more combat strategy against different classes. At the moment, only few Tanker use Protection stats, other classes don't even bother use it, I think should make more use of this stats.
Assasin vs Assasin will never be in pain again, whoever got better stats would just win the game. Agility also increase Critical chance, they can now try to fight Tank or someone who had high protection, instead of just focusing in 'Evasion' with low damage. -
Accepted Answer
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
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Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
CASE CLOSED~ -
Accepted Answer
Bagheera wrote:
The big problem on this server is PVE for all melee classes (hello hell mode). Try to fix this thing (to make mass attacks lower). I don’t see any problem with eva or hit
That has always been a problem and I went to great efforts to give most area skills a cast time and the red warning circles to give melee a better chance of surviving. There are still area skills with no warning but most of them are frontal cone (melee got no business being in front of bosses) or around the boss with lower damage, less ignore defense and less crit and stuff - healer gotta have something to do than spam one skill on a tank :P But I did ask you guys to let me know of skills that still cause a problem for melee and I adjusted all of those reported - so if there are more, just let me know.
Hell mode is another kettle of fish though - hence the name choice :P -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
The big problem on this server is PVE for all melee classes (hello hell mode). Try to fix this thing (to make mass attacks lower). I don’t see any problem with eva or hit
That has always been a problem and I went to great efforts to give most area skills a cast time and the red warning circles to give melee a better chance of surviving. There are still area skills with no warning but most of them are frontal cone (melee got no business being in front of bosses) or around the boss with lower damage, less ignore defense and less crit and stuff - healer gotta have something to do than spam one skill on a tank :P But I did ask you guys to let me know of skills that still cause a problem for melee and I adjusted all of those reported - so if there are more, just let me know.
Hell mode is another kettle of fish though - hence the name choice :P
U saw how I heal my party (I’m prophet without shields!!!!!!!!) with melee in pt -
Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable.
@Catharo you make some good points in your post. I am interested to know why WW is unusable in PvE though. What is it lacking in your opinion, to be desired in a PvE party or raid? -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
Catharo wrote:
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable.
@Catharo you make some good points in your post. I am interested to know why WW is unusable in PvE though. What is it lacking in your opinion, to be desired in a PvE party or raid?
Sorry to barge in, I believe this is the con of playing a WW and it should stay as it is. One class cannot be a master of both PVE an PVP except for *coughs Wizard with shield + reset skill (pvp) and gcast (pve). -
Accepted Answer
Ivan John Cameros wrote:
Sorry to barge in, I believe this is the con of playing a WW and it should stay as it is. One class cannot be a master of both PVE an PVP except for *coughs Wizard with shield + reset skill (pvp) and gcast (pve).
I'm not saying they, or any other class, should be master of both - but being unplayable in the main part of the game, PvE, is unacceptable. -
Accepted Answer
Sedy wrote:
Unplayable is too harsh a word. It can be in paty but only if the situation is completely hopeless and you need +1
Catharo wrote:
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable.
@Catharo you make some good points in your post. I am interested to know why WW is unusable in PvE though. What is it lacking in your opinion, to be desired in a PvE party or raid?
I'll try to explain my opinion. All races have common classes, for example
Sorcerer/Wizard Sniper/SharpShooter. All of them are well suited for both pve and pve everything is clear here. We can only compare WindWalker with Assassin, but why is one always in priority and the other is being replaced? I believe both classes specialize as De-buff. Sin their attacks buff themselves chance on Crete(useful), ww buff themselves attspd (useful except that for pvp, as in pve usually used Starving Ho dog).
Skill ww Exposed Armor 2 has been in need of improvement for a long time! With an increase in the level of ability, it does not improve and the buff that it gives is just funny (All protection -200 cooldown 1 min) in addition, this ability is located in the 3 branch of skills, in turn, as in Assassin, the identical ability gives (phys defense -12225 mag defense -6125 cooldown 1m) is in the second branch of the character's skills. Is there a difference? I think it's huge.
Skill 1. Assasin Spiral Jab 3 (ALL! protect-450 CD 5 SEC WTF?)
2. Essence Shift (abs-20% 6 sec) )
3.Shadow Strike 2(all atack - 40% invoked - (phys attack 40% moovspd 26%)
4.Spectral Dugger (range -350 ALL! hit-350)
and a few more skills that buff him (attack + hit).
Let's look at what ww can boast of
1. Dexturios Jub 3 and 2. Tempest assault don't give any de-buff, why? it is not clear (invoked +10% att spd = useless pve as it is replaced by a Starving dog Ho)
3.Cyclone Flurry ( no debuff
invoked +100 crit, not bad)
4. Exposed Armor 2-useless can not be studied at all.
You don't need to be a genius to understand that one class is significantly different from another, both in pve and pvp. For pvp, Assasin is more suitable, although it has less survival, but what it does with opponents due to its abilities: buff yourself and just remove all the enemy's defenses, and especially with cloth, you need to see this.
As for WW - in pve only one dbuff Savage Toneail 3 (physical deff -10000 magic -5000)
I'm not saying it's small, but it's VERY small when compared to another similar class.
For pvp, this class suits me, but there are a couple of nuances. I'll write you about them later, you asked me about pve
I in no way say that you need to do a weaker assassin, and significantly raise the ability of ww. I want to help you find a balance in these characters. Make sure that both classes have the same success in dungeons or close to it (such as the 4 classes I compared above) -
Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
What a 2020 joke ! U think ur ss with pure all stat v is good? u think ur ww with hell mode gloves(+magic eva) is good enough?
I always remember that both of ur characters got bullied by me. even my dear spg gulid could kill u easily (like Dking,Sett,Dezyce..etc)
I agree that change the Eva class to dps type for our greatest Pandora and let him play his ww in pve. -
Accepted Answer
Pandora wrote:
Forgive that has forgotten about your friends. But you have not mentioned Aorta and CocoChan
Catharo wrote:
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
What a 2020 joke ! U think ur ss with pure all stat v is good? u think ur ww with hell mode gloves(+magic eva) is good enough?
I always remember that both of ur characters got bullied by me. even my dear spg gulid could kill u easily (like Dking,Sett,Dezyce..etc)
I agree that change the Eva class to dps type for our greatest Pandora and let him play his ww in pve. -
Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
Pandora wrote:
Forgive that has forgotten about your friends. But you have not mentioned Aorta and CocoChan
Catharo wrote:
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
What a 2020 joke ! U think ur ss with pure all stat v is good? u think ur ww with hell mode gloves(+magic eva) is good enough?
I always remember that both of ur characters got bullied by me. even my dear spg gulid could kill u easily (like Dking,Sett,Dezyce..etc)
I agree that change the Eva class to dps type for our greatest Pandora and let him play his ww in pve.
Are u talking about Yuforia? This guy is BlueGum’s slave not much important
I can give u an advice , u should keep playing crusader rather than change to sniper and change it back again in one day (waste 400moolah so rich ah? Kid) -
Accepted Answer
Pandora wrote:
Catharo wrote:
Pandora wrote:
Forgive that has forgotten about your friends. But you have not mentioned Aorta and CocoChan
Catharo wrote:
"You can't hit me not because my class is stronger than yours, but because my character is much better dressed than yours. And you are noob and a hit won't help you at all " © Excalibur
-Everything went its course but here is what the sin killed several people with unbalanced psyche which not have become seek problems in itself and simply wrote admin that evasion unrealistically a strong characteristic
* ResidentSleeper* when does evasion become unplayable: does it remind you of anything? Vanquisher press F
-I have 2 characters opposite each other SharpShooter and WindWalker. I can hit anyone if I want to. There is no player I would miss (SS). There is no player who would hit me and it would be critical for me (WW). At the same time I have no difficulty in killing my windwalker. Yes, I cant fight against him but I dont missif I make a full evasion.
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable. But everything described below about evasion and hit also applies to Assassin.
-People are used to the fact that there is only one set of items - dmp (for example). I will dress my charr in it and be the strongest. People think that learning to play is not for them, because strong cards and things decide everything. But this is far from the case. Chars with evasion on the server are the least and this significantly affects the result of the battle. People just don't know how to play against them. People simply do not have enough game skills and the necessary things to defeat evasion. Only 2 things will allow you to win: your attentiveness in the battle against the character with evasion and your equipment.
-You will never be killed by ww which worse dressed than you and that is a fact! and you will never have any problems to hit him. The same applies to those who play on evasion. Why do you think it wont hurt if you get hit? after all you yourself chose to evade the defense... Why do you think that evasion should save you from everything and make you unkillable? If you get hit, it means you are weaker than your enemy, dress up or choose another battle tactic to win.
-For survival and efficiency of the WW or Sin class in battle you need to use several types of armor, namely Physical evasion/Magic evasion (If you use only one of these types, its no wonder why you get hit and hurt!) At battlefields there are both characters with a mag and chars with a physical attack. If I dressed for phys then I am equal in strength to phys characters and significantly weaker than the magic char. This is a huge disadvantage of evasion. We cant use a lot of magic and physical evasion at the same time. As for you, you only need one set of things per hit to win. I chose evasion to survive. You must choose a hit to counter me but you will always have an advantage over dodging if I am wearing the wrong set of things. You can not use one set (for example dmp) to defeat evasion, each thing put on you must give you a hit or pvpdmg.
- Come up with a build and you will never have any problems to get into eva. I know what Im talking about. This is important! Only with well-chosen items will you be able to resist evasion. Similarly for characters with evasion build on only evasion every item and almost every card must give you evasion to have a chance against a hit. You can make a high evasion at the same time the opponent can make a high hit And your chances will be equal. The winner will be the one who plays better(if we take into account the fact that all classes are more or less balanced).
Don’t get me wrong: hitt and evasion is like Yin and Yang. Just like protection and crit. These are two opposites of each other. To be in harmony and not have problems with killing the enemy, you need to have as much Yin as your enemy has Yang (BUT NOT LESS!)
"I suggest we leave it as it is now. People just need time to update items and practice more vs evasion players. As well as characters with evasion learn not to climb into the crowd of kneading so as not to leave your face there...
-Yes I understand how hard it is for you to play against me with one set of dmp vs evasion
What a 2020 joke ! U think ur ss with pure all stat v is good? u think ur ww with hell mode gloves(+magic eva) is good enough?
I always remember that both of ur characters got bullied by me. even my dear spg gulid could kill u easily (like Dking,Sett,Dezyce..etc)
I agree that change the Eva class to dps type for our greatest Pandora and let him play his ww in pve.
Are u talking about Yuforia? This guy is BlueGum’s slave not much important
I can give u an advice , u should keep playing crusader rather than change to sniper and change it back again in one day (waste 400moolah so rich ah? Kid)Attachments:
-
-
Accepted Answer
Karahay wrote:
It can be done but you need to sacrifice almost everything. Your health and pvp dmg will be minimal. All you can do with such evasion is just to run because evasion doesnt make you unkillable. Anyone can hit you, even if it has a hit of less than 500. Any impact on you will be almost fatal to you from for low quantity of hp
Well, Sedy please rework WW to be more PvE friendly, 800 hit snipers/SS and 600 hit mages are no fun to play against since WW cant reach that level of evasion -
Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
Karahay wrote:
It can be done but you need to sacrifice almost everything. Your health and pvp dmg will be minimal. All you can do with such evasion is just to run because evasion doesnt make you unkillable. Anyone can hit you, even if it has a hit of less than 500. Any impact on you will be almost fatal to you from for low quantity of hp
Well, Sedy please rework WW to be more PvE friendly, 800 hit snipers/SS and 600 hit mages are no fun to play against since WW cant reach that level of evasion
yeah thats right. kill 200khp character with 10k damage per hit ^^ -
Accepted Answer
Catharo wrote:
Sedy wrote:
Unplayable is too harsh a word. It can be in paty but only if the situation is completely hopeless and you need +1
Catharo wrote:
-The game has a huge variety of items that you can use in a particular situation, whether it is pve or pvp. I want to share my opinion about pvp, because WW in pve is simply unplayable.
@Catharo you make some good points in your post. I am interested to know why WW is unusable in PvE though. What is it lacking in your opinion, to be desired in a PvE party or raid?
I'll try to explain my opinion. All races have common classes, for example
Sorcerer/Wizard Sniper/SharpShooter. All of them are well suited for both pve and pve everything is clear here. We can only compare WindWalker with Assassin, but why is one always in priority and the other is being replaced? I believe both classes specialize as De-buff. Sin their attacks buff themselves chance on Crete(useful), ww buff themselves attspd (useful except that for pvp, as in pve usually used Starving Ho dog).
Skill ww Exposed Armor 2 has been in need of improvement for a long time! With an increase in the level of ability, it does not improve and the buff that it gives is just funny (All protection -200 cooldown 1 min) in addition, this ability is located in the 3 branch of skills, in turn, as in Assassin, the identical ability gives (phys defense -12225 mag defense -6125 cooldown 1m) is in the second branch of the character's skills. Is there a difference? I think it's huge.
Skill 1. Assasin Spiral Jab 3 (ALL! protect-450 CD 5 SEC WTF?)
2. Essence Shift (abs-20% 6 sec) )
3.Shadow Strike 2(all atack - 40% invoked - (phys attack 40% moovspd 26%)
4.Spectral Dugger (range -350 ALL! hit-350)
and a few more skills that buff him (attack + hit).
Let's look at what ww can boast of
1. Dexturios Jub 3 and 2. Tempest assault don't give any de-buff, why? it is not clear (invoked +10% att spd = useless pve as it is replaced by a Starving dog Ho)
3.Cyclone Flurry ( no debuff invoked +100 crit, not bad)
4. Exposed Armor 2-useless can not be studied at all.
You don't need to be a genius to understand that one class is significantly different from another, both in pve and pvp. For pvp, Assasin is more suitable, although it has less survival, but what it does with opponents due to its abilities: buff yourself and just remove all the enemy's defenses, and especially with cloth, you need to see this.
As for WW - in pve only one dbuff Savage Toneail 3 (physical deff -10000 magic -5000)
I'm not saying it's small, but it's VERY small when compared to another similar class.
For pvp, this class suits me, but there are a couple of nuances. I'll write you about them later, you asked me about pve
I in no way say that you need to do a weaker assassin, and significantly raise the ability of ww. I want to help you find a balance in these characters. Make sure that both classes have the same success in dungeons or close to it (such as the 4 classes I compared above)
WW's Skill tree
1. Dexterious Jab 3 (invoked skill 14% attackspeed.) ^^
2. Tempest assault (invoked skill 10% attackspeed.)
3. Cyclone Flurry (invoked +300 crit) wow ty.
4. stunning blow (stun)
5. Finish him
1. crippling jab 3 (debuff -50% movespeed, all hit -30%)
2. scorpion sting 3 (debuff -50% phys evasion, immobilize)
Sin's Skill tree
1. spiral jab 3 (debuff -450 all protection, invoked crit +300)
2. accurate lunge 2 (debuff -500 all evasion, invoked crit +300)
3. essence shift (debuff -20%physical damage absorb)
4. exterminate (invoked 35% hp drain)
1. crippling jab (debuff -75% movespeed)
1. paralytic strike 3 (debuff all evasion -100%, stun)
2. phase collission (Debuff -50% phys damage absorb, immobilize)
3. shadowstrike (debuff -40% all attack, invoked 40% attack movespeed 26%)
^^
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