jose, don't worry - Highlanders/Barbarians will probably be the most unique class of all.
This is also why, though they're already halfway made, I will not reveal any details about them. Stay tuned and wait for the preview.

do something whit barbarians , they dont have special skills

James, yes. Don't worry.
Basically, new Scouts/Windwalkers are based around kiting, evading retaliation and dealing heavy singletarget burst damage. I can't say anymore however, because they're still somewhat in-dev.
Heavy burst damage is heavy, so expect more & better ITD skills.

inb4 OMG KITING WARLOCKS NOT UNIQUE

GM Sedy care to add some damaging skill for us scout? give us atleast 3 more ITD skills. we are so few in number. our ranks are geting lower by the day. adventurer has more killing skills than us.

Spunny:
1) Don't think that you can't be countered - Silence, for one, can do exactly that. (As it can do any spellcasters, for that regard.)
Counter transforms with transforms, it's been done before (Silence does not shut them down).
2) When 3 people are coordinatedly chain-CCing you...Idk, submit. For that one, I doubt ANY non-tank class can escape this situation unharmed.
3) Most Zerks I observed prefer to burst their damage (blowing all their ITD right away to instagib the target), and due to addition of Overpower, they can now actually burst out all their skills is 2-3s. Watch your timing and it should pass.
That said, you're supposed to actually not let melee classes into range altogether.
3b) I have to repeat myself: Phasewalk is NOT meant to be the "get out of jail free" card like same Wind Fort., it's meant to provide a short window of invulnerability to bait out burst damage, wait out your cooldowns or prepare for escape (like Windwalk immediately after). Think about it - what the same Puck uses it for?
4) As I said, it IS insane actually. Something still may be able to hit you, but unlikely, unless it's a 100%-hit skill or your Eva is debuffed. (Yes, Windwalk, too, isn't meant to be uncounterable)

@Fistand regarding WLs

1) 'true combat mobility'
There is a crucial difference between the world of Puck and the world of Iris. Puck is very squishy and vulnerable to silences. In Iris, every single person is a silencer due to the availability of trans eg lizard.

2) When 3 people are ganking, you're supposed to windwalk out of there
When someone is ganking you, you are under 101 debuffs which usually include a silence or stun (because so many classes have these + trans). So... since you can't use any skill, how are you going to windwalk out?

3) immunity for 3 secs
Sure, you can evade one ITD. And then? What about the rest of zerk ITDs? and what about the other 12 seconds of ITD that mercs have?

3b) not-moving while immunity
wtf? so we just stand there.. while they wait and continue whacking us? their cooldowns are not that short you know.. they'll just wait the 3sec and continue right away. maybe if a healer got to us during those 3 sec, but that's about it really.

4) eva for WL
You will need an insane amount from that skill because hit chance will increase again at L85 due to gears etc. Otherwise it's not viable. Even if I get 150% eva for a non-mail user, effects are barely noticable

Lol, I misunderstood. Makes more sense of think of it as channeling, wasn't focusing on that meaning of it, can't use other skills then while using channeling skills. Other Xwalk skills look like they are buffs. Learning a good bit from this thread, my main sustenance of energy/momentum for new patch, since 3rd job previews aren't released daily like I was hoping when first one went up, as a countdown to patch day.

And I suppose I can see that happening. I have seen tanks be near unkillable in DM's, and other's that get struck down in 5 or 6 hits from zerks. Long as taking decent damage, will be interesting. Though that makes reflect useful as a 1 vs 1 weapon in pvp for Champions. While still painful, if a group gangs up on a single guardian, the damage required to kill should be split enough that no one person takes too much reflect damage. But often it's 1 overly OP person rushing in and doing all the damage, so does require players to actually pay attention and plan their attack a bit more. Like you said, one option is to just wait out the reflect duration.

It is not Immob + Silence, it is CHANNELING: you CHANNEL the skill on yourself, gaining invincibility as long as you hold the spell. Channeling was used before - Meteor Shower, anyone?
About Champion - truth is, they in fact ARE the anti-zerk/lock class. (Or any high DPS class, for that regard. ) They can't really do much damage on their own (even Templars surpass them in that), but they are able to spectacularly suicide their attackers. This makes him a kick-ass PvP tank, far surpassing Templars' damage in this case.
This is balanced by the fact that they need to get hit, which means
1) they actually take damage and their HP is not unlimited
2) smart people can bait out/wait out the reflection buffs (though that has a positive side too, since the enemy Zerk is just standing there and doing nothing)
Moreover, they are hard to ignore altogether because of knockbacks, stuns, slows and debuffs.

Well, Silence makes so can mount up, but 'Unable to use Skills' debuff makes so you cant mount up I believe. That aside, just having -MS equivelent to 75% mounts basically makes it like they aren't using a mount, even if they mount up. So since has a debuff to move speed, doubt using mount would make much difference pvp wise. Unless you've devoted everything to non-movespeed stats like me, runners should be able to catch up to mounted phasewalker. On foot I have like no +movespeed, so could easily outrun me. Granted I'm tank, not really a pvp class and don't pvp.

But to sum that whole mess up, even if can mount with phasewalk, I think that's fine. Most players have enough + move speed they can catch up probably on foot and even if not, they can catch up on mount. I do think immobile silence is a bit harsh and should at least be able to move a bit. But if it only lasts 3 seconds, I don't think it matters too much either way.

As for the Evasion, I wasn't really thinking of Sorcerer evasion so much, more that if Sorcerer is getting such a high evasion buff, that I expect daggers will be getting equivalently good or better evasion boosts/skills/passives. Wondering if may be worth playing my Adventurer again. Obviously have to wait for the dagger previews to decide that, but thinking out loud.

And yeah, i'm totally satisfied with Templar skills. Just sometimes curious what it's like to play Guardian/Champion side of the coin. Speaking of reflect, with reflect tarot and DH Gigantes transform ice shield, I think I hit 100% physical reflect. Curious if Champion reflect skills + Gigantes can maybe hit 150% reflect or so. That would be a killer anti-lock/zerk ability atm. Though granted, maybe not since Champion is a tank, relatively low damage from those classes anyways, so probably wouldn't hurt them too much. Just a fun thing to think about. Such high reflect is probably better suited to a true anti-lock/zerk class. Actually wondering if reflect can even surpass 100% or if it's capped at 100% for some odd reason.

Kage: Essentially, while Phasewalking, you cannot do anything at all - nor can anything done to you. While allowing to [slowly] move under Phasewalk seems legit to me, it can likely be abused. Like, summon mount 'n run (Silence does not shut down mounting).
You are actually right about Phasewalk's point - it buys some time for skill cooldowns. Like I said above, it can also be used to dodge burst damage, since you can't be interrupted and the cast start is instant (as with all channeled spells).
About being surrounded while Phasewalking:
1) Windwalk/Backward Teleport right after 'n run
2) if Windwalk's on CD (though it has a moderately short one, ~35s)...well, nobody said Sorcerers can't be focus-fired down. That's actually their intended weakness, same as Wizards' (though less painful for them, but I'll get on that later)

About Evasion: I probably just can't word it right, but I repeat myself once again - Sorcerers are NOT intended to build evasion and there is no skill to help them with that. Windwalk's evasion is just a method to evade damage while retreating (there's your Absorption). Building evasion does NOTHING to contribute to Sorcerers, except further boosting Windwalk a little (what's the point?)
I gave Windwalk Evasion, not Damage Absorption, because Evasion is still a little random (so it's not a press-to-win skill, unlike same Wind Fortification) and certain classes still can counter it. Damage Absorption can hardly be countered.
[Everything has a counter, deal with it.]

Champions' and Templars' way of tanking is different.
Templar tanks high-damage single targets (bosses) much better, due to absorption shields, Words and defense buffs. He defends his party members through essentially the same - Words and buffs.
Champion is more well-suited to tank multiple targets due to AoE attacks, knockbacks (to round them up in one place) and damage reflection.
He inevitably takes way more damage than Templar does (which is his main drawback), but unlike him, he dishes out substantially more damage due to Reflection. He defends his party members through physically getting in the way, throwing their attackers back.

Ronnie: Nobody's actually going to get windfort-like skills. Especially mail classes.

Yessss i love warlocks now. We'll be awesome runners.
Does it mean that mail users are going to get windfort-like dmg abs skills? lol.

Can't load composer error to edit, so as not to double post, copy, delete, repost/paste:

Hmm, Sorcerer is sounding more glass cannon like. But in a good very mobile way that shouldn't be hard for any skilled/talented lock to handle. Though granted, even if WF is removed, Niria trans skill (all dmg to mp instead of hp for what.. 3 minutes?) + phasewalk with low cd + Nirenia skill 5 seconds immunity with trans reuse cd, most pvp locks (good at switching to trans, using skills and switching back) should still be able to be near invincible when it counts. Sounds like Phasewalk basically buys them time for any cooldowns to pass to be back on their way. Plus I assume still have skill reset. (plus can always pot, CH 30% pot + VH 20% + 5k super hp pot, that should quickly recover most lost HP in that time if dont have a healer)

Though I do think (especially since Sorcerer will have some + move speed skills, Phasewalk sounds better with -50-75% move speed than immobility. At least give them a chance to escape if situation is dire enough to need to use it. Like in DM, if can't move, perfect target to get surrounded by opponents if rest of your team had to retreat and you used Phasewalk.

And with that, segway into next skill of interest that basically does the same thing, for the most recent preview posted~ Champions Turtle's shell sounds awesome, especially that it recovers HP too. Great for tanking some tough spots. As a Templar a bit jealous of it, but Templar is getting some nice skills to make up for that. May be interesting to try out a guardian though. I like the sounds of it's multi-target tanking abilities.

Good job so far. While the little spoilers in this thread are nice to think about and consider, definitely looking forward to more official previews being posted. Hoping healers are up next, especially since the other major DPS classes are sounding a bit more controversial.

PS: as a side note, not all classes get passive dmg absorb. Unless it's changed, mail classes don't. Only cloth/heavy users do.

Edit: Ahh, plus Sorcerers getting such an amazing Evasion skill from the sounds of it, even more so (plus not like many locks are not stocked with all stat and all stat bonuses, so kind of have some evasion to start with already). Which brings up the point of mail users even more... wonder what kind of evasion mail classes, particularly dagger is going to be getting. I assume this means a point where evasion actually works really well has been found. Maybe instead of Healers, Mail users would be a good next post. But then again, only 2 healers, 4 mail classes.

LOL i wont expect an answer from you at all since I dont see any logic from you at this point anyway. I will just do the same thing ray does and wait LOL.

Jester: if we're still talking about Windwalk, the Evasion buff doesn't mean "a little eva to help running away" - it means "dodge everything like a boss". Expect a huge Evasion increase for it. In other words, nothing can really hit you in that state.
Think Beastial Instincts, only 5x effective and lasting ~3 seconds.
I don't get it why are you all picky over the evasion. The amount this particular buff gives will be enough to dodge almost everything launched your way - it is essentially equal to [near-]invincibility, what's the difference? Unless Evasion can get countered by...certain classes, but hey, nobody said Locks can't be countered.
And yes, I don't give exact values because it's atm undecided. But I assure you it will be high enough.


addendum: I guess I'll have to deliberately ignore Vulcan, since I'm well aware of his self-esteem from in-game world chat.
Unless you tone your arrogance a bit down, you might as well not bother expecting a response.

yah answer by asking why would I need absorption. Good answer there, however didnt answer my question at all. Good job on answering fistand

This gives me so much life *U* Thanks for the wizard updates, this is just the thing I need to drag me back into the game XD

Vulcan, I answered, in kind. Arrogance, ho!

Ray: They are short, but so are their CDs. That's the point I try to explain to you here.
Warlocks (or for any omniscient ones here - at least the new Sorcerers) are all about mobility - they're given low-CD attack skills (Fire ones included) and quickened cast speed for that. That was present in vanilla Iris and is being extended now.
Idk, the closest example I can show is...say, DotA's Puck, the Faerie Dragon. I won't explain further (those who are familiar with him know what kind of mobility I'm talking about), but that's how true combat mobility goes.
For such a class, Wind Fortification was too long, too powerful, and too spoiling. It was the cornerpoint of balancing (yes, I talked to Sedy numerous times) and it still is now. I understand that Warlocks at first will rage, but the way Fortification is now is not the way to go. It must be balanced.
/end rant

All in all, care not to turn this thread into a shitstorm.

addendum: what Gala said, "pending" removal is pending

so I guess no answer for my question then? and yah im not gonna answer why we WL need Absorption.

Im returning to my point where 3seconds for a burst in MS --- quite short, considering
--- you know what I'm tired. I'll wait till it gets out before thinking if its good or not.

I just want to point out that the escape skills you're showing us now are all, short, easily overthrown tbh. Whereas fort is easy to debuff away. But fine.

---------

As for that post on top of me, Abs is for EVERYBODY. In case you have not noticed as to why all of us have passives of Abs.
Not just tankers =P
Though Suki does have somewhat of a point, our evasion is pretty much a dud stat wise --- meh. k anyway, Till the update comes then lol

I hope all of these are still going through some serious thought. I for one hate to see my class to just be squishy damagers.

Why'd you ever need Absorption then? You're not a plate bearer?

Question: what in the world will Warlock need Eva for? We aint mail user k? LOL

Well, channeled cast start is instant, so it can be used for evading something really fast if needed. Transformation still takes a bit of time.
Again, it's on a low CD.
Basically, it's usage is exactly that: quickly dodging the burst damage of, say, a Zerker and proceed to kite him again afterwards. Idk how else to explain, seems an ok concept to me.

If 3 people are ganking you, you're supposed to Windwalk the shit out of there. o:

We cant...walk. Great. What is the purpose of this again? LOL I'd rather Nirenia or use a Whippa which gives me invincibility and the choice to move and attack as I please.

I think that's up for debate >_> We're expected to stand like a totempole while --- for example 3 people are ganking us.
In 3 seconds.
Which is less than a debuff of Immo/Stun

So technically. What. LOL

Id suggest look into this more HAHAHAH. Just my 2 cents xD

You can't even walk. D:
Sounds good though, probably should be remade as a buff that causes Silence + Invincibility + -75% M.Spd to self for the same 3s.
I'ma send that to Sedy, though this seems a bit op...

Pfft. I said discussion k Not spill >_> But thank you very much lol

Sounds nice...MS

There is Phase--/Spirit--/Windwalk to get around that now.
In case you wonder:
1) Phasewalk is a short-timed channeled invincibility skill. By channeling I mean you can't do anything other than channeling - essentially it disables you but makes you invincible for up to (undecided, but probably 3) seconds. It has a very short CD - probably around 12s.
Oh, and you can't be interrupted.
2) Spiritwalk is a transformation (!) that disables attacks, but significantly boosts speed and evasion. If you are somehow hit, however, it is removed.
Spiritwalk also has an active ability that warps you back into physical plane, stunning everyone around you for [undecided].
Also makes a great travel ability (should be on par with mounts)
3) Windwalk is a short-timed buff that massively boosts M.Spd and Evasion (~3x more so than Spiritwalk!) for [~3] seconds. Moderate cooldown.

So you aren't really left without any defense whatsoever - you just need to work harder and react faster for it.


P.S. Stop making me spill more details! D:

...Say what? Lol.

You have got to be kidding that Abs is not a part of Lock's arsenal. It is in fact a passive already for every class (Some Armor Skill), plus some have buffs on it, like Knights. Yeah?

But with the removal of Brilliant Cards, then the Abs for locks is not OP now, yes? It is now a prime arsenal for them, like Magicians have a good Shield (Which i think will be updated)

But really. Without our Fortification, then what, we have low Def already and you're decreasing our chances to stay alive for PvP as well as PvE? heck the only reason locks are hard to kill is cause of Abs that saved them enough -- compared to Magicians who can root their enemy long enough to run far away. Whereas pushing is a split second.

We deal High Dmg yes? Meaning Aggro will be an issue, and what if your boss is 1HitKo, ex LiskH when a lock has 40k HP.
Theres no survival then?

I thoroughly disagree on that removal lol. I dont know about the others, but thats an outrage really

------

Im happy for the new things though, Channeling huh, so any type of casting? How interesting. But it doesnt stop attack though lol *waves hand* Somethings missing there hahaha

At least we still maintain high dmg.

Wow I don't even think that should be removed at all. We may have pushbacks but only so many. Eventually they'll get through to us. Wind Fortification gives us the time for all the skills to cooldown and bring our distance between the enemy and so we can continue again. These ITD classes will rape us. And the abs cards are gone and we have that one abs. It's our key card as a primary DPS and in the PvP battle don't take that away. The WL just seems like it's becoming a useless class and no longer important as a DPS. I hope something will come to replace the lose of wind fort if we lose it.

Magicians can stun the shit out of you and debuff you. Zerks and them can remove our buffs. We won't have much defense anymore. D:

We ARE indeed making classes unique.
You misunderstand the point of Champions' knockbacks (which is likely what you're implying?). Locks push to live and to DPS; Champions push to advance (talking PvP here, you probably are as well) and to defend allies.

I guess it's about time to spill some light on the new Sorcerers:
- They are NOT and will not depend on absorption. I personally very much dislike the Absorption stat by itself, but since it's already become the core of defense, we have to live with it.
- Sorcerers will mainly still thrive on knockbacks. They possess as low as 6s CD ones, and there are more of them. Moreover, to give them a defensive edge, all of the Wind-based spells now also interrupt channeling.
This makes Sorcerers a natural counter to most melee classes (Zerkers now indeed rage like never before), but they are STILL very squishy. They, however, now possess solid escape abilities.
- They are no slackers in AoE battles (ain't like they were anyway), capable of exterminating groups of enemies at once.
Their new 'ultimate' Fire skill, Armageddon, possesses THE grand highest raw Magic damage in the game. 'nuff said.
(This, however, does come at a cost, but I don't think you'll mind paying some HP for hellish goddamn destruction, will you? )
- As I've already mentioned, they utterly destroy single melee targets. Ranged classes are harder, but possible nonetheless.
That's enough for now.


P.S. Oh yeah. Due to what I said in the beginning, Locks thrive not (and should not) on Absorption...

so...

due to frequent issues with balancing that 'lol no' skill...

Wind Fortification is a candidate for removal.


Wild Fistand has fled!

Im curious--

We posted what makes a class unique ages ago in a thread. Though now in the previews it seems that all classes are just getting variations of each others skills. Is that Intentional?

Like for example, a Warlock will depend on Knockbacks, Abs, AoEs and their ITD
yet as per info you've posted:
-People are getting more Knockbacks and Pushes
-They have more AoEs
-They have more ITDs (This includes the Magician's ITD too)
and of course
-They get more Def/Shields/Abs

So...is there nothing making classes unique now? Lol
Im only speaking as a warlock, since its one of the classes I know by heart.

I just posted a quick skill preview for the Champion (Guardian advancement). It's brief but will let you see the new skills at least. And yes it's Champion, not Myrmidon.

You sir can take my LIKE!

Shadow Masters still have few defensive skills (though they do have an advancement in Protective Aura, or how the shield's called), and that is intentional; but they are now better suited to AoE combat (both PvP and PvE). Their curses and debuffs are much, MUCH more fearsome (and there are more of them!) and many of their primary attacks inflict them. They are also given substantially more crowdcontrol, but it is...not in their primary skill tree.
I won't yet share any further details on their skills: suffice to say they now, too, can attack from range.
(Food for thought: Shadow Masters.)

Pfft... adventurers stole our much cooler-looking class name...

What's Shadow Walker's/Masters/Avenger playstile supposed to be? I'd like to avenge something but I'm usually the 1st one to die :3

Yes, I swapped some classes' names (for the sake of fitting their playstyle):
Knight > Templar
Guardian > Myrmidon
Gladiator > Crusader
Berserker > Champion
Mercenary > Legionnaire
Barbarian > Vanquisher (pending)
Adventurer > Assassin
Shadow Walker > Shadow Master
Scout > Windwalker
Hunter > Sniper
Magician > Wizard
Warlock > Sorcerer
Priest > High Priest
Sage > Elementalist (pending)

(Avenger is Sedy's variant, which I, for one, dislike. There's a reason now why they're called Shadow Masters. )

You know, I always thought Shadow Walkers were gonna be the Assassins, as shown in this picture



While adventurer gets to be Wind Walker.

Or.. did you make the new names up? Avenger just sounds... weird :P

Yes and yes, to both of you.

If CTS gets redone then I hope we get a few more ITDs that are reliable ie insta damage + ITD such as the 4 skills zerkers have atm (not sure how many glads have).

Do you know if the Merc class is going to get a skill paralysis or reliable stun as well? We have 1 stun that likes to bug out rather frequently lol

Wow, everyone's talking bout all the other classes, and no one has brought up sages~ In my opinion I'm actually curious to see what the update will bring us~ Personally I'm quite satisfied with most of the skills at the moment, except I'd prefer a stronger heal, or buffs that raise HP. It would also be nice if the 3rd class could possibly give an advancement in Natural Power, and Potential Growth? I dunno what else you could add to sages, but I'm hoping there's something which will make us individually more OP. All in all though, I'm more interested in new eq, and I heard we might be or are getting pets so that's something new to look into ;D

Citadel: No, Mercs are not fine the way they are.
Chilled Tempest Penetration, however difficult to trigger, is essentially a free 15s (or so?) Destruction, which makes it somewhat unbalanced; moreover, its unreliability in triggering is also a factor. It will be redone. We'll still balance that out, but in another way...probably involving reliable defense penetration/reduction and something else.
Final Flash/Promise will also be changed most likely, though I'm unsure how at this point.
Natsuki: Yes, it is fixed. I think it was only bugged for Destruction?

P.S. Oh and yeah. To fuel more drama/speculation in the topic: Destruction is a candidate for removal.
This WILL be balanced out in another way, so no need to overreact.